StrugglingGuy wrote on 29 Nov 2010 01:41:

No.  Nobody's perfekt.  But, in the area of p*rn and m*sturbation, our thinking is not quite right.  And, if we approach Torah as an antidote to THIS problem, we will bring that distorted mindset along, too, in the way we relate to the Torah.

So, it is something more fundamental we need to straighten out IN THIS AREA in order to change anything.

--Eye.

I dont know if I agree with all of you. I do not believe the gemara specifies that the learning you have to do must be "inspiritaional" (like lekach vhalibuv for example) ; learning gemara b'iyun which is complex and detailed as we all know - might work just as well, maybe even better. doesnt the simple, stam learning of any torah help against the yezter?
i dont know how to undertsand that part of the gemara that says that if we use torah 'improperly' it can be detrimental to us- i dont know what you meant by that to apply to my situation. i dont learn explictly to fight the yetzer even though a diff gem,ara i n brachos says that that might be a good idea to do!- but rather i learn for the torah's sake
if limmud hatorah is not supposed to help us and transform us into holier people and remove the lust from our hearts, albeit slowly, then what is the meaning of the gemara? if you are saying it does not work for us, then what does it work for?

eye- you are right . Hashem has given us (on the site) a more targeted yezter in these areas. i agreee.
but why shouldnt torah help us? why us davka are excluded from the power of torah?
again, i am combining this with counselng, excercize, gedarim and tefilla, etc...

I'm sure learning gemorah or any other torah helps us on levels that we don't understand. Regular torah doesn't do much for me (I believe that it does have some effect on me and that in itself helps a bit) but inspirational things motivate me. The torah tavlin thing is probably for people that are extremely sensitive and kadosh but for me it is not a tavlin in itself but learning something inspirational does bring me to be more motivated.

StrugglingGuy wrote on 30 Nov 2010 17:37:

Well, this is a different story, now!

OF COURSE TORAH HELPS.  First of all, so many of us on this forum are feeling a need to change because we are looking at indecent images and we sometimes seem to m*sturbate, too.  Why do we think there's anything wrong with this?  Because we keep opening up to that section of Kitzur Shulchan Aruch and say, "oh my, this is evil, why can't I stop!"

That's one example.  I think a lot of us have come to our senses much earlier because of our Torah learning.

But, delving into a Tosefos isn't enough to cure us.  (Show of hands--how many people on this forum have gotten that "urge" in the middle of learning, and in the middle of the Beis Midrash?)  And, although I believe the Torah has slowed down our plummet into th abyss, I don't think it ALONE has the power to STOP us.

We need other tools.  BTW, I think it is Rav Twerksy that said, "The 12-steps are ALL Torah ideas, and I don't know why Hashem put them into the head of a non-Jew."

--Eye.

spent half an hour online trying to get around k9 with little success
i need to get better B"E

Another thought - clearly, not all torah learning can help, if we approach it with twisted ideas. And we'll never think our ideas are twisted, as we well know - we only see how messed up our heads were once they start to clear!

As an extreme example of why torah doesn't always help - can a guy complain about torah tavlin when he looks for gemaras that discuss sexual issues, as a trigger for himself? Probably not. What about if someone is learning, and part of the reason hes learning is so that he can feel good about himself even though he just acted out?

And although we may not all be doing the first one, I blieve that on some level or another, most of us have some aspect of the second one.

Hey SG,

How about installing a computer spying program. You probably wouldn't spend that half hour if there would be someone constantly looking at all your searches and the amount of time wasted... 

SB- good points. Id like to think my limud hatorah currently is not for either of those two reasons (although honestly in the past i have looked at those types of gemaras yes)
in- that might be a good idea actually. do u know of one i can use?

silentbattle wrote on 01 Dec 2010 06:59:


Good points, SB.

I would add another:  Sometimes we are trying to use our learning AS YET ANOTHER ESCAPE!  We stick our noses into our Gemarahs (or into Tehillim etc) IN ORDER TO HIDE FROM THE WORLD AND TO HIDE FROM OURSELVES.

So, if that's what's really going on, learning is just another escape mechanism that, ultimately, helps to make our situation worse.

--Eye.

Torah DOES change a person.

Look at all the things we have to do in order to succeed.

1.  Stick with a piece of gemorrah, even if it's difficult.
2.  Be patient with a dim-wit chavrusa (BTW, how many people on GYE prefer learning by themselves?)
3.  Be able to do a set amount, every day, one day at a time.
4.  Not get intimidated because "there's so much I have to learn."
5.  We have to be able to put our own thinking aside, and accept a different opinion.
6.  We need the humility to finally grasp an idea after lots of time and effort AND THEN accept that this is only a havah-aminah.
7.  We need to learn to prioritize; put first thing first.  We're supposed to be able to learn when we have nothing else important to that nobody else can do.  AND, we're supposed to be able to drop our Torah learning in an instant as soon as an important mitzvah comes along that nobody else can do.
8.  More directly, we're supposed to take all the words of chazal seriously, take them to heart, and put them into ACTION.  Not just the ones we like, "Torah is the most important mitzvah."  But also the ones that make us feel, sometimes, that we're losing out on life, "love your wife as yourself, and honor her more than yourself."  etc.
9.  We're supposed to value Torah and mitzvahs over physical pleasures.
10.  I'm sure there's more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.

Perhaps, "torah protects us from sin," means an awfully lot more than just reciting a bit of gemara with more kavana and with more hasmada.  Perhaps, it means ALL the tools we need in order to truly succeed in Torah, IF WE CARRY THESE SAME TOOLS, AND ALL OF THEM (at last count I think there were 48 of them), OUT IN ALL OTHER AREAS OF LIFE, we will be protected from sin.

--Eye.

wow, Eye!
that was something!
i need to re-read that so i can remember these important points
thanks

Torah has the answer for everything, but if our glasses are broken, we can't see it.

That's why Chazal say Derech eretz kadma laTorah. The derech eretz is the glasses.

An animal can't learn Torah.
Someone who doesn't know Alef-Beis can't learn Torah.
We need the Alef-Beis of being human.
If we have an addiction, that means we've lost our bechirah in a certain area.
Animals have no bechirah.
We have to become human again.
The Torah wasn't given to animals.

So we need to learn once again how to be HONEST with others, with Hashem, and with OURSELVES.
We need to learn Emunah. Simple Emunah.
We need to learn humility.
We need to change our motivations for living.
Wearing glasses of "self-will" and "sheker" doesn't allow the Me'or Shebah to be Machzir us LeMutav.

Just to add on to this topic... Torah is not like a "medicine" per se. It doesnt work if you just intake it. It only works (and I use the word "works" being very skeptical to use it...) if one has the right kavanos and mind set. If I take a Tylenol, it's going to do its job whether I want it to be effective or not. But Torah only "works" IF I want/let it and I understand WHAT it can do. Spiritual medicine doesnt happen without ones knowledge and intent. Meaning learning Gemara everyday wont make you better unless you direct the power of Torah towards what you want to heal.

a number of points need to be fleshed out here folks:

a) guard- when did i lose my bechira? what did i do to lose it? are we saying that we are not people that God has "chosen" (from the moment we were born; the yetzer comes at the womb "Lpesach Rovetz") to place the burden of lust upon in this world? (Gr'a and Rav Tzadok- the thing you find hardest to deal with is your tafkid to fix)

b) nefesh hachaim says that torah must be learned lishma without ulterior motives. and the gemara says that torah is a tavlin, torah has the power to eradicate the yezter. putting these two together it seems that investing time into torah will twist our yetzer l'tov. although when speakers say this , I have always wanted to know what a single guy's yezter for lust can be turned into for good...?