Some posters on this forum seem to give me the impression that they look at murder as the ultimate misdeed. Therefore they measure everything by that yardstick. Is it as bad as murder or not. And why is murder so bad?

Do we refrain from murdering because secular society decided that it is not a good thing? Because they are afraid that if murder were to be allowed they might be murdered too? etc.

Or do we know that it all comes from a Higher understanding. That it is a commandment from Hashem. He commanded it to us. According to the society around us, idol worship may be considered absurd & stupid, but it won't be equated with murder. Incest is bad; Polygamy is the 'normal' way; Having a 'boyfriend' is OK.

We live our lives subjugated to Hashem's will. We don't kill because He said, "Thou shall not murder." The commandments about idolatry are on the same level. They are just as stringent.  He also said, "V'daveik b'ishto, that a man should connect with his wife." Chazal explain that to preclude someone else's wife. Even a gentile is obligated to first dedicate a woman as his wife. Anything less is immoral!




Hashem did not give the Torah to Angles. He does not need Angles to serve him. He gave the Torah to US! He does not expect us to be Angles either. He just want not to be complacent with the way we are. We are to constantly strive to be better than we were yesterday. Will we be perfect today? No. Tomorrow? Not yet. He wants to see in which direction we are headed? If we recognize that our shortcomings are not 'natural'. They they aren't automatic results from the hormones that HE instilled in us. That we CAN work on controlling them. [it may not be the work of a single day.] Then we are his people.

If we see someone walking toward the showers with a towel folded under his arm, his hand clutching a bar of soap, there is no need to tell him that he is dirty. He obviously knows that already. He is in the process of cleansing himself. He is not clean yet, he is headed in the right direction.


If someone can lie in bed at night upset over what he did during the day, he makes Hashem extremely proud. He is from the few inhabitants of the world who know Hashem is a constant figure, not only a deity that is visited once a week.

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 26 Apr 2010 15:59:


HHhmmmnn. I'm not sure that Hashem wants my shortcomings to have me "lie in bed at night upset over what he did during the day." I'm also not sure such worry makes Him "extremely proud."

I mean, after all, didn't he also give us tachanun? Erev Rosh Chodesh (Yom Kippur Katan)? Behab? Yom Kippur?  As the old joke goes, he sent us three boats and a helicopter.

I'm wondering if maybe He wants us to love ourselves (not our sins, but our selves) and is proud when we figure out how to do that (even in our imperfection).

Reasonable people may choose to disagree on this one. Eilu v/eilu divrei Elokim chai.

Briut, we do not disagree in this matter.

We are just discussing two different aspects of it.

I heard a story about someone who came to his Rabbi with a list of complaints against Hashem. Hashem didn't do this for him. He didn't do that. Why is his business not successful? Why did his roof sprout a leak?  Why did his competition open a store down the block? Why did he miss the train? etc. etc.

The Rabbi stood up for him out of respect. He told him that he is very impressed a man simple background like his can have such a clear perception of Hashem. How many of us really SEE every little detail of our lives and the world around us as the workings of God?

How many of us have think of Hashem is a REAL being, enough to actually be crying in bed over our daily misdeeds?




(BTW, Do you want to start a thread defining 'Yiras Shomayim, FEAR of Hashem'?)

Do others also not understand exactly what point you are trying to make?

Actually, Tzadikl, I think I might understand Rage. (Although he's QUITE competent to repeat it himself, I know. I just like taking pop quizzes.)

Namely, you can comb chazal and find lots of actions listed in far harsher language than the aveira of mzl. We just don't know what kind of priority to give any particular lav, even The Big Three (murder, incest, idols). So relying on the relative awful-ness of this crime might be sorta shaky ground from a legal view.

("I call your mzl and raise you leaving shul early," "Well, I call your leaving shul early and raise you your disgusting meal without divrei Torah," and on and on and on)

I'd take his point even one notch further. I'd say we never ever ever know which mitzvos might be 'shtarker' than others. Hashem gave us a barrel-ful. He never told us which is which, or even if the same hierarchy holds true for every individual Jew.

I wonder if it'll turn out after 120 that we learn life was all about shatnez!!

(How'd I do, Rage-man?)

Briut wrote on 26 Apr 2010 19:33:


As you say!
The mishna in Avos advises us to be as stringent with the 'small/easy' mitzvos as with 'big' mitzvos for we do not know the reward for mitzvos.

Rage - I agree with you (whoa! mark down the date!  :D) that treating this as an addiction is probably the best way to deal with it. For almost anyone masturbating, anyway, it comes darn close to the DSM-IV's criteria for substance abuse and substance dependence (even though those are talking about physical drugs).

But for people who don't feel that it's destroying their lives, it might be important for them to know the reason they should work on this issue before, say, talking in shul. The guilt is not a good method for dealing with the issue, but realizing how important an issue it is, is necessary.

yes, you can find an extreme saying from chazal for lots of aveiros. However, this one's got a lot of 'em, including soem more extreme than the one you posted.

More importantly, though, to my mind, there ARE halachic ramifications. So it's not just an esoteric agadata gemara, that we can say, "well, I don't understand what that means, when I have a chance to check up what the maharal says, I'll get back to you."

By the way, am I the only one who, when reading the title "seal of truth," thinks of a marine mammal that can tell if you're lying? Or perhaps one of the artifacts from a Zelda game?

Sorry, just had to share my thoughts.

I don't know how in Gihenims name I missed this thread till now....

I am in full agreement with the original poster of this thread....

I for one was mortified by "seal of truth".... It was the most damaging video I have ever watched -hands down....

For all you tough minded guys out there see this:



-From
תשובה בזמנינו
ד"ר בן-ציון סורוצקין

And see this:



-From
תשובה בזמנינו
ד"ר בן-ציון סורוצקין

-From
תשובה בזמנינו
ד"ר בן-ציון סורוצקין

When we sin and get all dirty...
G-d is like our Mommy who will still take care of us and clean us and even still kiss us -even though we are dirty...



-From
תשובה בזמנינו
ד"ר בן-ציון סורוצקין

According to R' Desler, the reason Klal Yisroel fell to the depths of moral impurity in Egypt...
Is due to the fact that they felt bad about themselves....

Sounds like guilt is the cause, not the solution.... :-\ :-\ :-\



-From
תשובה בזמנינו
ד"ר בן-ציון סורוצקין

I can go on and on and on and on....

The point is that G-d is understanding....
We must be understanding of ourselves...
Guilt is extremely destructive....

Tried-123 wrote on 27 Apr 2010 05:39:

I Know what you say from experience, my Yatzer horah would convince me that “masturbation is the worst sin in the entire universe and is on the same level as brutally murdering little children, therefore I must spend every moment of the day focusing on stopping this, Stop worrying about trying to daven with a minyan, doing chessed and small things like that, a murderer has more important things to stop.”I am beginning to realize that I am wasting a lot of my potential because of this guilt.
And did the guilt help me stop masturbating?
It made me do it a lot more!
Another point that may be worth discussing is that I am sure that true “yirat shomayim”
Has nothing to do with “fear of punishment” fear of punishment is fear of pain, not the profound awe of Hashem we should really have.