Rage ATM wrote on 21 Apr 2010 13:39:


Well, of COURSE it's inappropriate to go into Shabbos services with a cell phone. Always.

(Whoops, not always: we have hatzala folks in our shul with walkie-talkies all the time, they answer them IN SHUL with the Rav's permission because the few seconds it takes to walk outside could make a difference.)

And of COURSE it's inappropriate for a married woman to come with uncovered hair or short sleeves. Always.

(Whoops. Not always. Maybe that hair is really a knock-out of a sheitel and what are we doing staring at her anyhow?)

Okay, I'll cut the flowery stuff about don l'kaf zchus. While we shouldn't be jumping to suspicions about the others, you're probably right that cell phone guy is NOT a doctor saving lives and the woman with the pocketbook is NOT bringing wine for the hostess.

SO WHAT?

If we want to inspire their "RESPECT FOR (the shul) WHERE THEY ARE" then maybe we have to offer some RESPECT FOR WHO THEY ARE. And if they do carry a wallet into shul (who's staring at their trousers, anyhow?), should we approach them al pi darko as individuals or put a big poster on the wall telling them to drop the wallet or get lost?

I really am sympathetic to your feelings that a lack of respect and decorum can ruin a shul for all of us. I guess I just have a different view of how to earn (!) respect.

Somehow this applies to the original topic (inspiring teens to give up p&m) but I've forgotten how. Oh, that's right, inspiring through love.

I've seen/heard people at the Kotel with their cell phone ringing..

then not only do they answer it...
with one hand on the Kotel Wall, they keep talking (nothing serious - just chit-chat) and then kiss the holy stones and walk away..

oh, please!

how serious do you think they were..

(and this is not the cardboard kippah wearers, either)

its just another symptom of being slaves to our technology. makes me wonder why Egypt has not entered the cell-phone business...

with PHARE-O-Phones...

dont leave your home, or your country of slavery without it.

Rage ATM wrote on 21 Apr 2010 14:46:


I think we were speaking the same thing all along! Maskim right back at you, baby!  I love you, man.

Why did Er & Onan, the sons of Yehuda, die?

The following is an excerpt from Yechida's latest Reflection:

yechida wrote on 21 Apr 2010 14:41:

Briut wrote on 21 Apr 2010 14:38:


(Is that what she should be wearing? >

No need to respond to this post. We ALL know that this forum is not meant to knock others or to try and correct the world, etc.)  ;D

Silentbattle- The fact that we have to bring up his past-life in order to try explain away the unfair judgment that he tries to claim he had,(by the way why should we believe him over the thousands of Christians who claim they see j**** saving them in there near death experience?) means that there is something seriously wrong with trying to use this film to stop people masturbating, it is rather foolish in my opinion.

Do you think the average guy, addiction or not is going to start analyzing the whole film?
Most people will feel anger towards Hashem, (they will probably try push this feeling away but it will be there, deep down)
In my opinion the film does not cause “yirat shomayim”, it cause’s “sinat shomayim”
To help look at this objectively I will give an example (note I am just illustrating a point so please don’t take it out of context)
If you heard that there was a religion that believed that biting one’s nails is a terrible sin, it is so bad that even if you have never heard of this sin you are going to burn in hell and be publically embarrassed, no questions asked (equivalent to the film). And that the pain is so great that if someone comes back to life they will cry uncontrollably as they recall the horrors. (equivalent to the film ) Now be honest would you want a relationship with such a god? I know this is a stupid example but maybe you see my point.

I am not saying that masturbation is fine, I am saying that for most people it is not possible to simply say stop doing it.
We as Jews have to strive for these high levels, but the focus should be that when you progress you are reaching very pure high amazing levels of kedusha, not that if you masturbate you are an evil pervert, and because you are not actually killing your children, you can approach it maturely and if you need time to grow slowly at your own pace, that’s fine and you don’t have to worry about frying in hell.

happygrowth wrote on 21 Apr 2010 23:18:


Not sure why - the point is that there are consequences to your actions. You had a question on that, claiming that it's unfair, and I'm explaining one possible explanation of why that isn't the case.

Your example of biting nails is interesting. But why not...let's say, flipping a switch? How much damage can that cause, right? And anyone from 200 years ago would agree, and laugh at such a ridiculous religion. Today, you and I both know that flipping a switch (a superficially innocuous and innocent action) can have huge consequences.

Again, the idea of "burning in hell," etc, as a "punishment," is a christian concept. Hell itself is, in fact, a good thing. It's a cleansing process. It's not fun, but it is kind, because otherwise we'd stay dirty.

As I said, I'm not saying that this film is the ideal approach, and certainly, any message of the damage being caused must go along with a message of the building we can do. But the beauty of life is that our actions are NOT inconsequential. Like it or not, all of our actions are incredibly powerful. Even if we don't realize it. Even if it's a total "ones" (no-fault accident).

How do you want to portray that to people? Good question. But presenting judaism, and/or life, in a fake way, helps no one.

The HALACHA is that a man can't M*** even to provide a sperm sample for medical reasons.

also MZ'L is assur,  guilt is not.

Holy Yid wrote on 22 Apr 2010 01:57:


Apparently you have been bentsched with avoiding the pain of infertility. Boruch hashem. Otherwise, you would be familiar with ways than even a semen sample can be collected AL PI HALACHA for medical reasons. The cases are surely not universal, and the mechanics of these situations can get a little complex. I won't even say that 'all major poskim agree' because it's a very complex area where each case is surely different.

But I think the fact that couples DO go through fertility tests and procedures that require mz'l is evidence that the 'horrors' of the sin must be put into context.

If there's a reason you'd like the name of a leading rabbinical authority on the matter, let me know.

i did not want to get into fine points I just wanted to focus on the not taking it lightly.

silentbattle wrote on 22 Apr 2010 01:24:


It would make no difference if it is biting nails or “flipping a switch” (I just used the nail example for objectivity)
To say that someone will be judged, and tortured for Shabbat, even though he is "ones" is going against the fundamentals of the Torah. I m not talking about the “spiritual damage” what ever that means, I am taking about judgment, the man in the film is clearly describing judgment.

Holy Yid wrote on 22 Apr 2010 07:42:
I don’t see why there is a need to start defending the fact that masturbation is not allowed according to halacha, no one is arguing with this.
The issue is the understanding that Hashem is reasonable, and does not demand the impossible. And that everyone only has to concern himself with the challenge of one’s personal level, whatever that may be, when one grows one’s challenges will be on a higher level, but one is only judged after all your emotional, genetic, etc. is taken into consideration.
Sexuality more than anything has to be treated the most maturity and rationally, because it involves a very deep and personal side of a human being

Okay, I can't resist anymore, I will weigh in on this topic too.


Personally, I do not like that film since we saw it 18 months ago. I do not believe that guy's story. BUT, almost everything he said corroborates very closely to what I already knew. So I look at it as a compilation of the Mamorei Chazl on this subject packaged into story form. Is it for everyone to watch? A resounding NO!!! Was it wrong to make such a film? I don't think so. No one around here complained about the Sefer Reishis Chochma, even though it describes in Gehinnom in graphic detail. The sefer is left on the bookshelf untouched. In fact its use is HIGHLY discouraged in most Mesivtas for learning by teenagers. Anyone want to propose banning the book??



On another note, last night I was at a parenting class. At the end there was a Q&A session where someone asked how to talk to kids about S'char V'onesh, reward & punishment, i.e. gehinnom? The answer had two parts:

#1) Parents who do not control their own actions based on their knowledge of gehinnom and heavenly retribution cannot expect from their children to refrain from misdeeds due to that fear.

#2)  The lecturer then quoted his grandfather who explained gehinnom as being a big washing machine. The soul is headed to Gan Eden. Gan Eden is a place of ETERNAL pleasure. We have a hard time thinking in terms of 'eternal'. One hundred years, one thousand years, one billion years, all these are nothing at all compared to eternal, forever!!!! No end ever!!! Gehinom itself lasts for a maximum of one year, only 365 days.

Imagine the following: On the way going to a State Dinner in The White House a person tripped on a crack in the sidewalk and his tuxedo got soiled. Is it he at fault? Is there room to blame him for slipping into a puddle and getting his clothes muddy? He is an Ones! He was never told that this sidewalk is cracked. The crack was very well concealed. He may even have been pushed into the mud, but will that change the situation? Is ready to enter the grand ballroom in the state that he finds himself? He has no choice other than to return to his hotel, take a shower and put his clothes through the washing machine. He may even need to make use of a dry cleaner. Is he a bad person? Are the guards stationed at the entrance cruel hearted for not granting him entry to the party dressed in his soiled clothes? How would he enjoy being there if he would've been granted entry attired in this manner? He would just be slouching in a corner. He wouldn't enjoy a single moment of the festivities.

Hashem LOVES us! Every single one of us! No matter how low we may have fallen. On of the Tzadikim said, Hashem loves the greatest Rasha more than we love the greatest Tzadik!!! His love for us is sooo great that He wants us to enjoy the ultimate eternal pleasure in its entirety. Therefore, he does not let us into Gan Eden with soiled clothes. He first delicately and lovingly scrubs us clean of our sins. Even those sins that may have accrued before we even knew that we are going to be invited to the ball. Even those sins that we didn't even know that they are considered sins. Those that we thought  are 'normal for adolescents with hormones'.

Does that minimize his image of a loving devoted GOD?


We would be doing a great big disservice to all those teenagers out there if we try to shield them from the knowledge that mud is dirty. That if we play in the mud our clothes will get dirty!

Rage ATM wrote on 22 Apr 2010 15:42:


What are the "Keruvim and Lahat hacherev hamishapeches" that Hashem placed at the entrance to Gan Eden referring to?

(See Bereishis 3:24)