dov wrote on 10 Mar 2010 18:14:


Dear R' Dov,

I hear what you say (after reading it over about.... 3-4 times... ;D, P.s. am I the only one out there that has to read Dov's posts like over and over to get it...?)

I agree that focusing on your upbringing serves little purpose...
It is true for many situations...

But if the extent of the harm was extensive, it is not advisable to 'get over it' prematurely...

G-d instituted that upon the loss of a relative that one is an Onon then Shiva, then Sheloshim, then Kadish and for some a full year, and then there is a yartzeit every year for forever.... (or till 100?, whatever...)

G-d didn't say: "hey, I understand that your youngest daughter died last night, but only focus on it to help you move forward...."

Would you tell your Granddaddy after the Holocaust:

"Hey, I get that you were locked up for 3 years, starved to near death, your wife and children murdered, and you were almost killed about a dozen times...

But you gotta get over that resentment, no use to "move into whining, blaming and self-pity".....

Somehow I doubt it....

The world tends to downplay the extent of child abuse, but I guarantee that some children (and I say this very confidently) had a family experience comparable if not worse (in the emotional effect, which is all that really matters) than most concentration camp survivors.

The only difference being that Nazis were outside Goiyem who we knew where sick people, whereas a child's parents are his role models, the ones supposedly protecting him/her, the ones that shape the very essence of the child's mind, the ones you learn from what the world is like, the ones you are totally dependent on, the ones you innocently put your full faith in....

Another difference is that whereas a concentration camp survivor's trauma is validated, understood, accepted, etc...

A traumatic childhood is denied, misunderstood, with not a witness to affirm it's authenticity, other than your self (which you were taught to doubt...)

Friends:

I do not condone wallowing in self pity, but wont condone denial of a persons need to mourn... (it is vital if one is to move past it...)

Believe me I've spared no effort to "just move on..."
But with no success to speak of...

What I've come to believe is that if the trauma was extensive one must first mourn in order to move on...
If it was minimal perhaps Dov's (which is the traditional wisdom...) approach is best (all I know is that I've tried that over and over with no success...)


Quote from Dov:

"In the heart of recovery there lies Hope - a basic spiritual rest for my restless and tatterred heart. And that hope comes from trusting G-d at my core.
I have no idea where I got that from. It seems it is a gift.
I need to have a G-d, rather than just believe in a G-d."
End Quote.


I still await that hope...
I wish I can find "trust in G-d at my core"

I don't think I was one of those lucky ones to get this "gift"...
I am dying to "have a G-d"
Any Idea where and how to purchase this kind of gift...?
(I could use a birthday present like that... :D)


If anyone got really depressed reading this :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Sorry... :-\ :-\

If you head over to Yechida, SB, Bardichev, Dov, and the rest of the crew...
You should be back to yourself soon enough...

That's just one of the good parts about this forum...

P.s... :o

I love these emoticons... :'( :'( :'(...



I am still trying to figure out precisely when to manipulate each one ... :-* ;D :-* ;D :-* ;D...


and when  : :...



to use what > > > >

Dear T123,

I love the emoticons too,especially  8) and  :o.

And as far as what you were getting at, it seems poshut that the poor guy who doesn't mourn after a loss that is normally shatterring, but acts like he "feels OK" (perhaps in his mind mimicking the great tzaddikim), is likely in for trouble on the day when "his heart opens up" - that time you alluded to in post before. Instead of his heart opening up so that all the good stuff layed on it can fall in, in his case it often allows the bitterness, rage, and confusion to pour out. Or more likely explode out on everyone around him...

So, I love your approach of facing the pain, if you've got it. And it sounds to me (but who cares what I think :) that you are on a good derech, all in all. "Tov" is fifteen steps away from "yafah" sometimes - like after sh'ma in emess v'yatziv!). Nu, it's slow and rough, but we should all be so lucky to have our heads screwed on as straight as you do. Amen!
Hatzlocha!
Don't give up, keep reaching out for help - oh, and you may find that you will get more of those gifts you desire by reaching out to help others than by mainly helping yourself cope. Just sharing your real pain with others may be a great way to help them, strange as it sounds.
Wer'e screwballs - we lead with our weaknesses!

Alei v'hatzlach!

dov wrote on 11 Mar 2010 14:05:


That we are screwballs, I hear (or shall I talk for myself..?)

But you got me very curious...
I never heard the other part before...

I always thought that people are very uncomfortable with another persons pain.....

You think it helps people to hear someone elses real pain...?
How would that work...?

P.s. I treasure every word of honest feedback....

There where numerous posts and PM's to me that I printed out and read over a few times... To take it in.... Internalize it...

(Just a note for everyone: I found by myself when I started posting that I would just read through the reply of others and then just respond.... But then I realized that whatever you are hoping to gain from posting, you wont gain it if you don't fully digest the replies.....

My advice:
take the time and patience to slowly read through what people are telling you, and take it in. I gained from doing this...)

I agree completely...and by the way - reading through Dov's posts a few times is advisable for everyone! ;D

Perhaps what he meant was that from your perspective, you can understand other people, and offer comfort and advice in a unique way?

And by the way - reading your posts is inspiring, because we see someone who is struggling through many things in life, but refusing to give up, and continuing to work and grow!

Well, first of all, it only works for people who already have pain of their own, like other addicts, for example. And then, only when they are open to it, like, for example, if they are throwing up their tzoress all over you. Or if they admit they have tzoress but are not willing to go any further and actually open up about them. Or for folks that are so ashamed of themselves that they think they just need a rock to climb under.
These types generally feel quite relieved when they hear a real live mirror talking to them, and they see that their lives are not over - by a longshot. They often begin to undergo quite a life change as a result, and have only you to thank, for sharing your tzoress with them.
A bit nutty?
Maybe.
So?
One more thing, and this goes for Torah as much as for recovery: I believe that as long as I am sharing what I have actually experienced by using it in my life with others, they can benefit from it. On the other hand, "teaching" or "saying over" great and true stuff, bounces off their hearts and is relatively useless - except to cause more guilt. Their brains get lifted while their bodies are still in the garbage - and they know it. I have seen this.

More true ideas and inspiration is not what we really need. We seem to need more experience from action - more real,  personal Truth. It's like talking about our relationship with Hashem vs. just saying your netilas yodayim or shehakol like you are plainly and simply talking to Someone.
It's in the action, not in the thinking about action. Gevalt.

So, all your struggles and pain will help someone someday, for certain.
Your deep hashkafic he'aros? - maybe they will, maybe they won't.

dov wrote on 11 Mar 2010 18:24:


Do you think I posted a lot of lofty stuff that I haven't actually experienced....?

I'll think about that...

I wish I had a private "Dov-Translator", to fill me in on what Dov is really heading at, I am often unsure of what you mean to convey with your words....

To me it seems like you are trying to point out something non-positive that I should change....

To confess the truth, the Hashkafic haoros I wrote on this thread was about me....
about me expressing my dilemmas, my uncertainties, and stuff I am trying to figure out....

I have no idea if it will or will not help others...

I just know that I have a partially warped image of G-d, and I was trying to see what the non-warped image of G-d would look like....

I have a blockage to be able to simply say a She'hokol like I am talking to someone....

So I turn to the mind to try and figure out what this blockage is and how I can work around it...

I need to define in order to defeat....

Feel like I'm chasing my tale here...

Dear Tried-123,

Your stuff is in black, and mine's in blue. Together, we are black-and-blue! Enjoy!

Tried-123 wrote on 11 Mar 2010 23:37:

dov wrote on 12 Mar 2010 00:36:


Dov:

You are hereby presented with the Nobel prize in the field of "Dov-Translating"..... :D

I am starting to realize that Learning about G-d is a lifetimes work...
And besides, I think my blockage is not in thought but in in emotion...
It's a symptom of the problem, not the problem...

I think :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Is it possible to remind yourself how much hashem loves you? In other words, a few times a day, when something nice happens, remind yourself that it's coming from hashem?

Or even just remind yourself that although we can't always understand it, hashem loves me, and I know he does. And really feel it.

silentbattle wrote on 14 Mar 2010 05:21:


No :-[ :-[ :-[

Gevalt! OK, so yo say SB's thing is out of your reach right now. OK.
I know a guy who got better just by saying the words when he really needed to. It went something like this: "G-d, if You are listening, please take away my lust/resentment/fear/(whatever) - because I have plenty, and that is the problem here - not yenem, nor my circumstances....G-d, if You love me, then please help me know that You love me....G-d, help me actually have the gratitude I can have to You. I don't want to work hard on anything, I just want You to give all these things to me with the smallest amount of work possible, by me."

Nu. What do you have to lose? Do you think it's chuzpadikeh to talk to Hashem this way?
If so, I propose to you that he sees our hearts, not just our words. And our hearts do just this all the time! When we are impatient, we are saying to Hashem: "Well? What's taking You so long?!" When our stomachs hurt we tend to get very upset about it - we don't accept it be'ahava (meaning full acceptance that it's Hashem's best plan for us). Our rage is always a nasty way to say to Hashem (in our feelings) something like: "What the h--l are You doing?! Do You have any idea how much this hurts!!". Why else doe we ever get angry about anything?

Nu. That's what I think. Maybe I'm totally cracked.

So, why keep lying to Hashem if you are already saying it to Him and he knows it? Let it out as a son talks to his father. If you feel you can't do that yet, then you can at least ask Him to help you out so that one day you will be able to talk to Him like a son talks to a father.

Who says we need the whole package, or nothing? Trying is surely worth something.

I haven't gone to shul on a weekday in a good couple of months... I find it impossible to even Daven alone....

The one thing I make sure to do No matter what is to put on Tefilin...

I know you that many of you guys wont understand me here... But I know myself quiet well, I am not fooling myself... I simply can not talk to Hashem.... In my heart I am aching to be able to...

Thing is that on Shabbos I try very hard to go to people (Not good to be alone, also I fear that being so so bored will make Shemiras Shabbos very hard...

Anyway, When I am by other people I kind of have to go to shul...
This past Shabbos during Davening I was looking through various Tefilos that we say I was trying to connect with something...

It got me so frustrated, because I was definitely not connecting ....
Most Tefilos are expressing the exact opposite of what I feel...

I don't feel like praising G-d for all the wonderful things he constantly gives me... I feel more like meeting up with him and... don't know... Maybe yell at him...?

A part of me believes that everything G-d does is for the good, but my emotions don't mach up with this...?

Maybe like Dov said: I should tell this to him.....
I will try....

On a more positive note:

Lately I find myself saying "So help me G-d"

I think those are the last words the President of the US says when he is sworn in....

A tiny step forward...

Also I believe this problem is a symptom...
Because I can not express anything to my parents... I simply do not talk to them at all....

I think that when there is a bit more understanding betw. me and my parents... that this will get easier....

I was busy today trying to get my Mother to come to family therapy...

We'll see if this works, and if it will help....

Tried-123! You are such a lucky fellow to be on the path you are on! As someone wise posted here a while ago: Where you are going is much more important than where you are coming from.
You may be in some dismay about where you are coming from right now, your track record, lack of this, and of that....but given where you are holding, your direction is just fantastic!
It's so easy to sit back and criticize another for not doing this or that, or not holding by whatever good thing.... But by the same token, it is also so natural and easy for us to bitterly criticise ourselves for what we are lacking! We are often quite damning of ourselves. Most folks destroy themselves this way, and permanently.

So, I say you are definitely one lucky guy and G-d bless you!! (the presidents also say that, I think...)
Staying on the upward path is the only thing that matters. The only thing.
Much love,

Dov

if you need to YELL at HaShem - do it!

and realize when you are done- you'll realize that he will still be there for you.

Dov in Israel

I came across a colection of quotes that I once gathered...

Since I'm bored, and you are as well (or you wouldn't be reading this in the first place..... :D).....

Here goes:

"It is probably better to be a first rate version of yourself, instead of a second rate version of somebody else"

For the I'm Falling Thread:
"When you feel like giving up, remember why you held on for so long in the first place"


For when you are really depressed:
"If you are going through hell, keep on going" (Churchill)


My personal Favoriate:
"The way to succeed is to double your error rate"

Perhaps this is what Michael Jordan meant when he said:
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed"

"No one is perfect, that's why every pencil comes with an eraser"


"I have not failed; I have found 10,000 ways that wont work" (Thomas Edison)

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" (Einstein)

"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful"


When your mother-in-law offers her intelligent advice:
"I cannot give you the formula for success but I can give you the formula for failure -which is: Try to please others/everybody"


"Success is the good fortune that comes from:
aspiration
desperation
perspiration
and inspiration"
(the desperation part is for Dov)


"Experience is the name we give our mistakes"

When you feel like you aren't getting anywhere:
"Success is the sum of small efforts repeated day after day"


For 7up:
"Sometimes the shadows of this life are caused by our standing in our own sunshine"

"The most important opinion you have -is the one you have of yourself; the most important things you say all day -are the things you say to yourself"


"Only those who do nothing at all make no mistakes; but that would be a mistake"

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new" (Einstein)

Save this one for your best friend:
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed"

The following are a bit tough in my opinion:

"A bend in the road is not the end of the road unless you fail to make the turn"

"There are two ways of meeting difficulties: You either alter the difficulties or you alter yourself to meet them"

"In order to be walked on, you have to be lying down"