I think that when we deal with very lofty concepts, sometimes we have to realize that we can't do that on a 100% level yet - but we can work towards it, and do it on OUR level.

Tried-123 wrote on 07 Mar 2010 11:48:


A lot of what he's saying has kabbalistic sources, i htink, but also definitely brought down in Rav Dessler's "kuntris hachesed." He also discusses the other concept you're asking about - you're right, we're not "giving" him anything. But we're doing what he wants us to do. Another possible answer is that...The gra says that every action we do, has a desire beforehand. So, hashem has a desire for us to do good - but although he oculd've forced us to do good, he then gave the ability to do so over to us- and our job is to return that ability to him! So in a way, that's "giving" to Him, too.

As far as punishment being a tool - that, too...but more than that, I think that when we say "punishment" we think of this as kinda an arbitrary thing - you tried to reach into the cookie jar, so you get a slap.

Truth is, it's nothing like that at all! It's more of a natural consequence. if I walk off a cliff, I'll end up with broken bones - not as a punishment, but as a direct consequence! If I choose to smoke, I breathe n unhealthy chemicals - those will adversely effect my health. If I choose to inhale illusion instead of life, filth instead of holiness...I'm adversely effecting my spiritual health. Which is a real thing.

Dear IT25,

The entire issue seems a boondoggle to me. Just like figuring out exactly why and to precisely what I am addicted, bechirah and yediyah, bechirah and addiction, bechirah and a nice saffron rice pilaf with chateuneuf... Finally figuring these deep (and useless) things out is just something I am too stupid to do, I figure. If I were smart enough, though, would it matter?
I choose (that's bechirah, for you) to relegate these issues to the dustbin of my mind, where issues like "how refrigerators, my intestines, and women really work" are put to rest.
Scratching those itches may not help me, but responding to the things that have already kicked my butt hard (to get my attention) certainly will help me. Things like:

I am in a great deal of trouble, on my own, per my track record. (step 1)

I need G-d's assistance, as no human power seems to have helped me. (step 2)

When I actually follow (rather than study) some simple steps (3-12) I remain sober, get a clearer head, and the people around me are much happier.

I can't keep G-d's help while going it alone.

The guys who come to meetings and never get better are often the ones who talk incessantly about how they are "here to finally figure this thing out."

Oh, and the final one is that rice is much better with (a little) saffron and a nice white wine.

Luvya, bud.

I am taking a brake from all this heavy duty Philosophy...
Although if someone wants to post re. any of this I'd love to hear...

SB:
I hear you (It's a Ruchniusdiga Mitzius...)...

But why did G-d make it that when you do something wrong you get bad consequences, Why even tell us about it...?

I am positing that he did this so that the knowledge of it can be a tool to help us in choosing what will bring us the most happiness...

But if the knowledge of it has the opposite effect... makes things harder...

He'd want us not to use the tool of realizing this...
He'd want us to find tools that work better...


Dov:

1) I'm not IT25 that's someone else...

2) I hear you, thanks for checking in...

Dear everyone else who I love (all of you...)
Thanks so much....

Peace and Love Holy Brothers....

Oops! Your'e right, I was wrong - you are definitely not someone else!  ;D

....i still live like a dummy in this respect and leave these deep answers to the smart, usually dead people, like socrates and groucho marx...or was it karl?

On the subject being discussed here

look at this convert's perception of God


This is an aish article from 2007

Before I post it here is the last paragraph that she writes


It has been quite a journey. In many ways though, it feels almost like I have done a lot of traveling and come full circle, coming back to the close and pure relationship I had with God when I was a child talking to him before falling asleep. It is a great source of strength to me to have that feeling of being watched over once again

These words says it all.

To connect with God I needed to throw alot of what I told about God , typical stuff from human tape recorders that repeat the same old cliches, and talk to Him straight,one on one,without any personal agenda,just pure and simple,you want a pure and close relationship with Him.

I must say that what she writes here motivates me to yearn and strive for that very deep connection with God.

My conversion to Judaism.

by Cindy Johannsen

The following essay was written by a woman currently undergoing conversion with the London Beth Din.

My father has been an atheist for most of his life, although he was brought up as a Protestant. My mum was raised Hindu although she has not observed any practices since she was 18.

My parents always told me and my sister that they didn't feel it was their place to impose a religion on us (mainly because they were from such different backgrounds), but that we would be free to choose ourselves. Religion was seen as being something that other people do, but I was always encouraged to think about faith.

Until the age of 16 or so, I didn't think about belonging to a religion. I believed in something, but didn't know what. I always felt that there was something bigger than me that I was not able to comprehend. I remember lying in bed as a child and talking to God, and I was always curious about religion.

I went to a Christian school until the age of 14 but became very close to a Jewish girl there. When her father sadly died when we were nine, I remember being struck by the process of sitting shiva and the enormous support her family received from the community. As someone brought up in a community of four(!), it was something which touched me tremendously. However, I had no structure to my beliefs, and no way of expressing them. My dad has since reminded me that I was fascinated with Judaism for many years; I had assumed that it was not until much later that I started to look towards Judaism to give me that structure. However, we recently spoke about how much I used to talk about Judaism and the Jewish people and he found an exercise book in which I had written about Sukkot and the Exodus at age 11!

For a few years while I was a teenager, I became very angry with God. We had a very difficult time as a family, and I went through the experience of losing two family members who had been very religious (although they were not Jewish, obviously). At this point I remember questioning for the first time whether there was a God, and whether I had been kidding myself by feeling that I was being watched over. I went through a very angry period which I remember as being quite a dark and difficult time.

As I walked down the railroad tracks in Birkenhau, I felt an enormous connection to the people who had walked there 50 years before. I'm not sure what changed for me, but I vividly remember visiting Auschwitz-Birkenhau when I was 16 on a school trip. As I walked down the railroad tracks in Birkenhau behind my classmates, the sky suddenly turned completely black and I felt an enormous connection to the people who had walked there 50 years before. It was the first time in my life I had felt such a strong connection to a community other than my immediate family, and it was astonishing for me. After returning from Poland, I decided to begin exploring this further and wrote my A Level History project criticizing Holocaust revisionism.

Around this time, I became a lot friendlier with Aryeh and he began telling me about his religion. I remember being struck by how openly he talked about his relationship with God, and how firm his belief was. Previously, the concept of God had always felt very private to me, and almost embarrassing, but he was so proud to believe and to see himself as having a close personal relationship. I began to feel that perhaps I could be entitled to such a personal relationship as well, and in a way started repairing the relationship that I had felt with God when I was younger.

That was, I suppose, the start of the journey that has brought me to where I am now. About five years ago, I decided to test my ideas about ‘rules' being restrictive, and started to eat only kosher meat and stop mixing meat and milk in order to see what effect that might have on me. I was surprised at how broadly it affected my life.

Firstly, simply having to think about the food I was preparing and eating encouraged me to consider where it had come from and the special significance I could give to food by having to think about it in this way (rather than just as ‘fuel'). I did a lot of research at this time about kashrut and the emphasis of compassion, especially in blessing an animal, really struck a chord with me. Secondly, it had the unexpected effect of making me think about my identity. I had always been thoughtful about my mixed-race identity, but that felt like it singled me out. Now I felt an affinity to a community, just through the way my actions set me apart from other people. At this point, I was still eating in non-kosher restaurants (ordering vegetarian food), and I was struck by how much I had to think about my identity even just looking at a menu, or going to the supermarket. Rather than feeling limited as I would have expected when I was younger, I felt somehow special and enjoyed feeling that the simple act of eating could encourage me to be so reflective.

Finally, it also had the effect of changing my identity to other people. I found myself shocked at the strong reactions I received -- many of my friends questioned why I would change my lifestyle at all. This was the first of many experiences of having to explain my actions, and it had the dual effect of encouraging me to think about my reasons for doing it, and increasing my affiliation with the Jewish People.

Following this decision, I spent a long time reading on my own, and thinking a lot about how I felt about religion, and what it would mean to be Jewish. The more I read, the more I found views which I felt described the values I already had, such as being hospitable to others, being careful with one's words, the separate roles of men and women, being charitable and so on. I was particularly struck by ideas of God as being present in the world but hidden, and being an incomprehensible concept that we could never fully understand. This seemed to really put into words what I had always felt, and it felt like a relief to find an idea of God which was so separate from humanity, so broad and encompassing, and yet still personal and close.

I felt as if God was listening to me. Around this time, I started experiencing my life quite differently. The only way I can describe it is that I felt ‘accompanied'. As I was reading, and thinking about whether to try to become Jewish, a number of things happened which made me feel as if God was listening to me, and telling me that I was on the right path. At times, I put this out of my head, thinking "I'm just one person, why would He care?" but it continued and gave me a lot of comfort. Even now, I have found that when times are difficult, something always happens to let me know that I am on the right path and that I should persevere.

Feeling this growing personal relationship with God has not only given me strength and comfort, but I think it has also had a huge effect on my relationships with other people. Shira, who is tutoring me in Jewish studies, told me some time ago that I should make my decisions thinking about what God would want me to do. I find that this underpins a lot of my thinking now. I feel that it has made me more forgiving, more determined to see the best in people and constantly thinking about whether I am ‘doing the right thing'. This has at times meant that I have made choices which have disappointed others, or have left me exhausted trying to be there for others, and sometimes even which have made others see me in a bad light (for example if I have challenged someone for doing something I have felt was morally wrong), but I get a lot of strength from feeling that I am trying to live my life in this way.

This has all happened in the background of introducing God into my life in a more tangible way too. Going to synagogue for the first time was a very moving experience for me, and I am eternally grateful that we chose Yom Kippur as my first experience of Shul; listening to that Kol Nidre service is something I will always remember. I am also thankful that I did spend such a long time learning on my own before I went to the synagogue; the rather intimidating experience of going to my first Shabbat service, and trying as I have to find a synagogue which suits me and which I find welcoming has been made much easier by the feeling I have when I open the siddur in shul and feel that I am on my own talking to God. Incorporating prayer into my daily life has also created a foundation for me to make the most of every day; saying ‘Modeh Ani' and thinking about starting my day ‘like a lion' always makes me jump out of bed in the morning! Praying every morning, saying blessings throughout the day and reflecting in the evening remind me to be thankful and give me pause to consider what I am doing, how I should go about my day, and how I can improve the next day.

It has been quite a journey. In many ways though, it feels almost like I have done a lot of traveling and come full circle, coming back to the close and pure relationship I had with God when I was a child talking to him before falling asleep. It is a great source of strength to me to have that feeling of being watched over once again.

In addition to the article above here are a few words from R Kook

Two Types Of Union

There are two types of union with the Divine that flash upward within us.

One comes from the Torah.

You may feel no more than an inner illumination of your soul, unconnected to the letters that comprise Jewish law and mitzvahs-yet this comes from the power of the light of Torah as it deals with this world.

The other kind comes from the essence of the light of your soul, in your soul's relationship with the light of God in the world.

And in all the many details of these two types of union with the Divine, that flash up within us, differences in how to use them. And sometimes we must blend them together.

Orot Hakodesh IV, p. 444

I cannot say I understand his words fully but clearly there is pure soul-light connecting relationship with Hashem that goes beyond our personal level of observance at any specific time.

and it is this aspect that many of us are lacking

something I need to work on

and here is a recent one from aish

Spiritual exercises to connect to God's goodness in the world.

by Efim Svirsky  Efim Svirsky, a therapist and educator, has developed a unique form of psychological/spiritual therapy to give people real tools to feel the presence of God and enjoy more meaningful, joyful and productive lives. The following article is based on an excerpt from his new book, Connection, a practical, step-by-step guide which takes the reader to spiritual heights, while unlocking our vast potential. The book comes with an MP3 disk, which contains the 60 spiritual exercises found in the book.

If God did not want us to contact Him, He would have arranged the world in such a way that we would not suspect His presence nor have the ability to find out about it.

Consider for a moment that we are rabbit breeders and we do not want the rabbits to find out about our existence. We keep them on a farm and install an automated system that feeds the rabbits, gives them water and cleans after them. A newborn rabbit will know that if he wants a carrot, he can press a certain button. If he needs some water, he can press a different button. For him, these are his laws of nature. If we wished to monitor the rabbit, we could install a secret camera to follow his every move without his knowledge.

Our Creator could have done the same thing. But He did not. We know this because we are talking about Him right now. We have the ability to fathom His existence. Jewish tradition teaches that man was created with the ability to communicate with God directly. In fact, it is a normal human condition. Adam, the first man, had an ability to communicate with God, and he was the archetype of humanity. After him, there were the prophets, including our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Moses, our greatest teacher. Thousands of years ago, the Jewish people even had special schools for prophecy. Like modern girls and boys who go to college, our young ancestors went to schools of prophecy. At one period, the Talmud relates, there were at least 1,200,000 prophets among the Jewish people.

And there were even more people that were close to having prophecy. Prophecy is direct contact with God and the ability to foresee the future as a result of the contact. Foretelling the future does not make someone a prophet. True prophecy is the ability to have direct contact with the Creator. In our time, we can no longer obtain the level of prophecy, but there are many levels of experiencing the presence of the Creator here and now.

CONNECTING TO GOD'S PRESENCE

If you take seriously that the Creator is here right now, that He is your father -- the best father you can ever have and more -- who wishes to give you everything that you need for your spiritual growth, how should you feel?

Here are some popular answers:

-- Safe.
-- Protected.
-- Harmonious.
-- Loved.
-- Fantastic.
-- Happy.
-- Able to do anything.

How do you actually feel when you think about the existence of the Creator? Sit back for a moment, relax and think about your Creator being right here, right now.

You may be wondering, what am I supposed to see when I think about God? The answer is "nothing." On one hand, it is impossible to see the Creator, and on the other hand, everything that exists is a manifestation of Him. What we can focus on, however, is the fact of His presence here and now.

Let me clarify. When you meet someone you love and haven't seen for a long time, you rush to embrace him or her. You close your eyes and take time to enjoy being with the person. You don't need to look at them at that moment; you just want to feel their presence. The same goes with our Creator. We do not have to create His image in our minds; we can focus simply on the fact that He is presently here.

I have found that people have quite various reactions to this request, from, "I am going to throw up" (!) to "I feel fantastic harmony and happiness."

Most people feel peace and a general -- but sometimes very deep -- feeling of safety and relaxation. Some people feel warmth in their bodies or hands and feet. Many see colors. Some people feel uplifted or feel they are flying. All of these feeling are "right." There are no wrong feelings.

CONNECTING WITH GOD'S GOODNESS

Getting in touch with the goodness our Creator wants to bestow on us can be a life-changing experience. Here is one of those experiences, a story from a young woman who used these feelings to work on eliminating an emotional trauma that had accompanied her for many, many years.

I was engaged to be married. As the wedding date got closer, I got more nervous. I wasn't worried about the typical issues of a bride. I was sure I had chosen the right one. What I was worried about was sabotaging my new marriage with my poor self- image.

Even though I am a size 4, I still viewed myself as horribly fat, and I don't have an eating disorder. I'm five feet tall, with broad shoulders and a wide back. No waist, no hips. Your basic inverted triangle, which doesn't exactly fit into the world's standard of beauty for a woman.

My poor self-image was borne of a career in competitive gymnastics. Everyday, from age 12, I was literally pinched with a device that calculated my body fat percentage. (At eight percent body fat, I was put into the "fat group" and forced to do two extra hours of conditioning more than the rest of the team. To give you a benchmark, the normal body fat percentage for a girl is around 15 percent; Olympic runner Carl Lewis once measured in at 4 percent, an anomaly even for Olympians).

If I wasn't being squeezed, I was being scrutinized. And whatever the result, it was never good enough. Talk about a body image problem.

When I became Torah observant, I was introduced to the concept of tzniut (modesty). Tzniut changed my life. I didn't have to worry about every inch of my body being perfect or, as a gymnast, on display. Still the problem remained. As much as I intellectually understood how Judaism values the physical as a path to the spiritual (not as an end in itself), I had not integrated this concept.

I had heard about Efim Svirsky's techniques of "psychological/spiritual" therapy, a long way from the standard method of psychological counseling I was used to. But I wanted to try it.

Rabbi Svirsky guided me into a state of deep relaxation and asked me to concentrate on feeling the presence of God. With more guidance, I experienced many sensations as I allowed myself to accept that God loves me unconditionally and created me perfect.

I literally talked to the body parts that tried to "block" God's goodness, something I felt clearly through a sharp pain over one eye or a tightening of my chest. Through a dialogue with each of my emotional blocks, I was able to see how the many defenses I had erected throughout my life to protect me from the stresses of athletic training had also prevented me from accepting who I really am -- a perfect soul created by God.

After breaking through my emotional blocks, I was ready to confront the antagonists in my life who contributed to my problem. Rabbi Svirsky first led me back to the age of four when I remember beginning to do gymnastics. Back then, nothing made me happier than cartwheeling my way through the day. I cartwheeled everywhere -- down the aisles of the grocery store, on the sidewalk on the way to school, to my friends' houses, on the couch, on my bed, into the pool. You name it, I cartwheeled there. What fun! I remembered the day when I taught myself to do flips. What a sight that was -- a four-year old able to flip herself frontward and backward. I flipped and flipped. I was my carefree and playful four year old self again.

Next, Rabbi Svirsky asked me to imagine myself when I was older doing my favorite routines. No coaches, no judges. Just me swinging on the bars and tumbling on the mat. I re-experienced the exhilaration of body so fluid to be able to do these incredible feats. For the very first time, I realized that my gymnastic ability was a gift from God. And what an amazing gift! How many people in the world could do what I could? For the first time since I was four years old, I was able to view my gymnastic talent as a gift rather than a curse. For the first time, I understood what Rabbi Svirsky meant when he said that gymnastics is a manifestation of God's harmony in the world.

I then began the spiritual and emotional work connected to my body image problem. "Go to the 12-year-old," he instructed me. "Tell her that you want to give her a gift. Tell her that God exists, and He loves her. Tell her that God created her perfect, and that nothing her coach can say can change that fact. Tell her that gymnastics was never meant to be destructive; rather, that it is a beautiful manifestation of God's harmony." I embraced my 12-year-old self and told her these things. A weigh lifted off her as she understood their truth.

Next, I gave this "gift of God" to my coach. I told him the Almighty created him (and gymnastics) as a manifestation of His Harmony and Beauty, not something to be twisted into a competitive ego trip. I watched him in my mind's eye as he realized that he, too, had gymnastics all wrong. Witnessing his epiphany put many of my harsh feelings to rest.

From there, I was ready to confront myself at 15, when I was at the peak of my athletic training and the depths of my emotional pain. It was very hard work, but the dividends paid off. Through experiencing God's presence and focusing on the reality that He created me perfect, with unconditional love beyond any a human parent can have, I was able to view myself, my coaches and the world in a new, healthy light and free myself from the debilitating self-image I once had.

and one final item for today

Equanimity
A Prerequisite to Meditation

By Rabbi Chaim Vital; translated and adapted by Zechariah Goldman
Behold, after a person is worthy of the secret of deveikut (bonding with G-d) one may become worthy of the secret of hishtavut (equanimity). If a person is worthy of attaining equanimity, one may become worthy of attaining hitbodidut (meditation). After a person is worthy of reaching the level of meditation, one may become worthy of Divine inspiration, and then one may become worthy of prophecy….

Of two persons - one of them honors you and the second insults you - are they equal in your eyes?
In explanation of the secret of equanimity, Rabbi Avner told me the following: A rabbi once came to one of the meditative Kabbalists and requested of him to be accepted as an initiate. The Master said to him, "Blessed are you my son to G-d, for your intention is a good one. However, tell me whether you have attained equanimity or not?" The rabbi said to him, "Master, explain your words." The Master replied, "If there are two persons - one of them honors you and the second insults you - are they equal in your eyes or not?" The rabbi said to the Master, "No my master. For I feel pleasure and satisfaction from the person who honors me, and pain from the one who insults me. But I do not take revenge nor bear a grudge."

The Master said to the rabbi, "My son, go in peace. For until such time that you have attained equanimity, until your soul does not feel the honor of the one who honors you and the embarrassment of the one who insults you, your consciousness is not ready to be attached to the supernal realm, which is a prerequisite to meditation. So go and surrender your heart even more, a true surrendering, until you have attained equanimity. Then you will be able to meditate."

And equanimity comes by attaching one's consciousness to G-d, i.e., deveikut (bonding). For it is the attachment of a person's consciousness to G-d that enables a person to ignore the honor or the insults…

[Gates of Holiness, 4th chapter, Second Gate section 5]

Very discouraged, and lack the will to continue...

I am no one elses issue so I"ll have to figure my own life out...

Till then, go on with out me....

Tried-123 wrote on 09 Mar 2010 22:42:

Dear actual Tried-123 person (not the wrong one I thought you were before),

Would you explain to me what you mean by 'figuring out your own life'? And why the discouragement to continue? To continue what? Is it sanity and sobriety that you are striving for, or is it 'understanding' that you feel you need? What would satisfy you, really? I mean everything I say here as a true chaver - no criticism at all!

Based on your posts I want to ask you why it's important to you not to be/look like a fool? I'm an idiot, and I'm still sober and living the good life, which is why I am posting to you, at all.
It is clear to me that when we are done figuring stuff out, we remain fools anyway.
Besides the fact that after figuring it all out and getting all the "power" to do right, all it'd take for me to make a complete ass out of myself and screw my life up is a woman who is 'attractive enough' to walk by me at the wrong moment. Or a lust fantasy to just pop out of nowhere, perhaps... Nu, but maybe everyone else is better and stronger than me.

As for me, b"H, somewhere along the way early on, I gave up on getting the brains to win and on figuring myself out so that I could finally beat this thing. I really don't beat it at all - Hashem takes care of me when I reach out for help and follow instructions for my own good. And any idiot can do it - trust me I know plenty who are! ;D

Perhaps you trying to figure stuff out so that Hashem can finally save you? But does He really demand that admission price? If you believe that, I'd like to know why. I'm really just curious. Promise.
My own experience tells me that He's a much cheaper date than that, really....maybe that's why jews Love Him so much! (a joke, a joke...)

You know by now that I am skeptical of the value of any philosophical endeavor around something so primeavally and viscerally powerful as lust is in my life. I'm an addict. But it's not because I figured that out! I'm only skeptical about that because I have never met a sober guy who was still obsessed with figuring things like that out. Addicts in recovery are generally too busy with living to discuss philosophy over-much. And the poor fellas who twist the steps into just more self-help material to "smarten up" with, just sit there wondering why they can't get control of things - while their lives schlep by...I've seen it a hundred times, at least.

So you may be the first. May it be so. Let me know. And now, off I go!  :-*

"V'samtem Es Hadvorim Hu'ele Al Levovchem"

"Al"...?

"On" your heart....?

Should have said "in your heart"

Says the Noem Elimelech, that the heart is often closed, nothing goes in...

What then...?

That's when you put inspiring words "On" your heart... It sits there and when the heart does open one day... It'll fall in...!!!!!!

Well my heart is closed.... Yechida's posts here seem great...

I read most of it... maybe in the future it'll have an effect...

To Dov:

Let's clarify things once and for all:

I have never been deeply involved in Sex, Pornography, Woman, Masturbation, and all the other stuff...

The first time I ever used the internet was about a year and a half ago...

First time I masturbated intentionally was a few weeks ago...
Never watched a movie till about a year ago...

I have never spoken to a girl casually...

My issue is not Sex Addiction; it has never taken over my life.

My issues are very different than the rest of you guys...
I don't have the patience right now to explain what my issues are..

In a few words, it's about coming from a dysfunctional family...

I came to this site because I found myself slipping little by little for the past year or two...

I came here a few weeks ago after an incident that made me realize that I will keep on falling if I don't get some help...

I have many of the attributes of addicts... making me prone to become one... (though, I do have minor addictions in other areas which I attended some 12 step meetings for....)

So most of what you are telling me re. to stop figuring out my addiction... etc. doesn't hold true for me...

With out my thinking into things and figuring myself out I would be a lost soul probably heading towards insanity by now...

My thinking gets credit for allowing me to be where I am today (emotionally... which is far far better than just a few years ago...)

When I said I feel like I lack the will to continue...

I meant:

Continue to move forward in life...
Continue to fight an uphill battle for a normal life...
Etc.
Etc.
I also meant the will to keep myself back from falling more...

Is this the right approach?

NO...

But I am conveying feelings/emotions not thoughts...

can write all day, but are you getting me at all?

Dear trying123, it sounds to me like you just need to find the right therapist. GYE alone will not be enough for you, although we'll always be there as a listening and caring ear, and to offer the best advice we can 

G-d luck, dear friend.

Dear Trying123 - there are days when things are difficult. And on those days, all we can do is remember how happy we are that we're growing! And remember that we are growing, and things are getting better.

And although you may not have the same issues that others here have, we love you still!

Sorry, Tried-123. It sounds to me like you have some things figured out better than even many normal folks do. I am glad for you that this knowledge gives you some stability. Kein yirbu!

You make some strong points. You made clear that the 12-step approach that I am familiar with may simply not address things in the way you need.
For example, the fact that a particular addict arose in a dysfunctional family is played-down a bit in the steps. The steps are focused on accepting the simple truth about me as I am today. Unlike you, many of us move easily into whining, blaming and self-pity when we focus on our families and their wierdnesses. As I have been taught, looking into my past is typically viewed as only having value in:

1- helping me admit the truth about myself now, and

2- helping me let go of guilt/self-loathing by discovering that many of my painful and destructive emotional and behavioral tendencies were certainly learned. They are not my fault. But I still have them. I used to hate myself for me...

Suprisingly, this also removed much of the latent resentment I harbored toward my family because:
3- I began to see that their tendencies were mostlikely also learned or developed out of percieved necessity. It wasn't their fault either! It just was the way it was. Incredible (to me).

For me, at the heart of recovery there there lies Hope - a basic spiritual rest for my restless and tatterred heart. And that hope comes from trusting G-d at my core.
I have no idea where I got that from. It seems it is a gift.
I need to have a G-d, rather than just believe in a G-d. To my heart, believing alone is just plain silly.

And as an addict and a Jew, this was my greatest gift, so far.

So, whether you are an addict or not, choose 12-steps or don't, I only wish the same for you, Tried-123. I feel confident that whatever your path is, you will find the menucha that you need.

Trying123, thank you for bringing out such beautiful words from our Rebbe, reb Dov... Beautiful, beautiful... if that doesn't give some good perspective, I don't know what can 


By the way, see this reply from Rabbi Twerski to an addict on our network who also had a troubled childhood and difficult parents... (today he is a year and a half clean - after acting out every day for 38 years!)