fightingyid wrote on 06 Jan 2010 16:52:
Wow, I totally missed that thread.

Personally, I feel like even if I'm not an addict, it's helpful to just avoid seeing women dressed in ways that will get me thinking. And anyway, I really shouldn't be looking at them, right? So I use the technology of addiction to help me in my personal battle.

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agree this tool may be true, however let me explain a bit more.

I like to read self help book. all types, may it be on my marriage may it be on myself esteem ect ect. The problem i found myself in when reading these books, lets me marriage for example, as i read a book on helping my marriage it talks about being compassionate for my wife, and i think to myself "hey im not always compassionate" or it says you must validate your wife and i say "i dont always validate my wife" and then the books continues to say these are fundamental for a good happy marriage. Now i think that bec i dont always do these things means i am a bad husband, whats gonna be with my marriage? maybe i dont really love my wife ect. In truth what the books are trying to say is that this is what we should strive to do, to the best of our ability. but the messages are not always interpreted that way.

Anther example is the "psychic" readers, when a person calls them and the psychic say " somthing very big happened to you today" and you say "yes! your right is was talking on my phone in  the city and almost walked into traffic and suddenly a man pulled me onto the sidewalk"! and now your hooked thinking this guy knows everything, when in truth he just told you somthing and you pushed it into a definition in your own terms.

The formost truth in this battle is, lusting for a woman and haveing a natural tevah for her share similarity's, they are both sexual.
When a person who is not an addict starts to think that he is, what happens is everything becomes a trigger, and he loses his focus on what is natural and what is lust, everything becomes grey. He basically pushes the addict definition onto himself thereby in fact CAUSING the triggers not avoiding them.

thanks kg for the help

To flirt with the girls

thanks for your honesty 

I think that natural taivah (in certain circumstances) and lust can be the same thing - maybe a more senior guy can pop in here, but I view "lust" in this context as unhealthy sexual desires.

When people read those books, so yes - they describe an ideal. And a person has to be healthy enough to accept that he's not perfect, and needs to continue working on himself. And also to be honest with himself to accept that he still does have to improve - in your example, to validate his wife more, and to realize that unless he's improving his marriage, then yes - his marriage might not be destroyed, but it is being damaged.

If the reader starts obsessing over it, and worries, and thinks that maybe his wife is planning on divorcing him, then yes - it's going to cause problems. But people who are that unhealthy, and want to obsess, will find something to obsess over no matter what. That's just an easy target.

fightingyid wrote on 07 Jan 2010 04:02:


"Everything becomes a trigger" - I'm not sure what you mean by that. I apologize for being dense, but I'm really not fully understanding. Are you saying that because he's always on the lookout to avoid looking at things, he becomes more sensitive, and notices more than he would otherwise?

silentbattle wrote on 07 Jan 2010 16:48:


you answered your own question here. If a person starts obsessing  that maybe im an addict, then its going to cause problems, like you said.

Yes, that is what i mean by everything becomes a trigger.

It seems to me that an addict has to deal with those issues, as well. Even someone who is an addict can't obsess about it.

And for the rest of us, too - we're NOT supposed to be checking out women, in any way. And addict or not, we need to figure out a way that works for US to stop doing that. Approach it in different ways, see what works for you.

Personally, I think that for most guys, women dressed provocatively tend to be triggers. And if you're noticing them, and have trouble looking away - why is that?

thats life. you questions is more like why did Hashem make us like that. good question

So for all of us, we need to figure out the best way to not look at what we're not supposed to look at.

Whether you're an addict or not, that stays the same.

Obsessing is never good.

The triggers are there for all of us - a piece of sh*& by any other name is still a piece of sh*&.

I honestly don't understand how thinking that I'm an addict is going to make things worse, unless I start obsessing.

Unless...do you mean that because I think that I'm an addict, so I'm going to start acting like an addict, and staring at every girl that passes with an evil leer?

yes. i you think,ike an addict youll act like one too.

let me ask you a theoretical question, which is worse:

1) some who stuggles with his Y'H and has ups and down look at occsional porn , battles the "one eyed snake" somtimes and live his life like that
or
2) somone who fights as hard as he could to avoid all triggers yet when he slips, he spend 16 hrs stright watching porn and jerking it?

Neither sounds good. The goal is to be neither. And both sound somewhat like addicts to me.

Are those the only choices?

yes, pick one.

and what makes #1 an addict?


i think its time you googled the definition of addict

I have two points to make. I'll make the more important one second, though.

1) There's a full-blown addiction, and there are also people who might not fall under the category of addicts, but who have an issue nonetheless - for example, someone who binge eats only once every few weeks still has a problem, even if they might not match the DSM-IV characteristics for bulimia.

Also, one of the characteristics of addiction is compulsion - feeling compelled to do something - I'd say that someone who has trouble stopping himself from watching p*&n, etc. has an issue with this?

Someone who gets drunk once in a while, in an unhealthy way - clearly, he has to do something to stop this horrible habit, even if he might not be classified in the DSM as an alcoholic.

See the definition offered in your other thread.

2) more importantly, bro - I love you. And I think you're great for being part of this forum, even if we disagree on this point. You're a jew who wants to grow, wants to be better, holy - and you're doing it!

And for that, you'll always have my respect.

Ditto.
Respect and all, I still think Reb FY is very caught up in the label of 'addict', and isn't giving it's meaning a fair judgement.