future paltiel wrote on 06 Dec 2022 15:56:

Id love to hear which ones!

frank.lee wrote on 08 Dec 2022 12:26:

Will respond tomorrow. bh Love the questions! Thanks.

That is the stigma attached to Mental illness. You give it a separate category and different meanings. That is why people stay in the shadows and don't deal with the problem. This a a great example of the problem...You go to great lengths to change the issue to something other than what it actually.

There is no shame in getting treatment for a broken arm, but there is for a mental illness.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 11 Dec 2022 10:45:

Because strange desires are not like broken arms. A broken arm is the cause of symptoms. Strange desires are a symptom of a cause. We treat a broken arm because it is the thing causing symptoms. We want to heal the broken arm. For some reason by mental health, we treat the symptoms, instead of the cause.

That will not heal the cause. That's like trying to heal a broken arm by treating the pain (symptom) with painkillers. That wont fix the broken arm. (cause)There's a reason doctors don't look at someone and say "hay, he's coughing, is red and out of breath" and then diagnose him "ok he has lung disease!". First there are tests to see WHERE THE SYMPTOMS ARE COMING FROM. BECAUSE WE GET A DIAGNOSIS BASED ON WHERE THE SYMPTOMS ARE COMING FROM. NOT THE SYPMTOMS THEMSELVES. Symptoms can't be a disease. Symptoms come from somewhere. Symptoms come from diseases. HENCE THE NAME SYMPTOMS.  Strange desires ARE A SYMPTOM OF NEGLECT, ABUSE AND TRAUMA AND MANY OTHER THINGS.

Imagine a doctor giving medication for a medicine, based on the symptoms for lung disease, without seeing or caring about where the symptoms are actually coming from!? What if the symptoms are stemming from a chest infection!?

frank.lee wrote on 08 Dec 2022 12:26:

ok awesome questions. Here are my answers. Id love to hear your opinion.


We can change our thoughts and feelings. Attractions are way lot harder to change, but its possible. (Takes a very very high amount of self awareness, memory and mainly time. I think the vast majority would not be able to lose an attraction.) I do think gaining a new attraction, as well as "watering down" an attraction we already have is doable and common. (Not for everyone. Some people cant)  Both those goals are quite realistic for many people. (not all)  -our brains can and is, always changing. Its called neuroplasticity.


Nope the Torah does indeed tell us not to have bad thoughts. (Ayin Mesilas Yesharim Perek Daled, He learns it from Nazir.) Also look at Shulchan Aruch EH 23:3


I believe its not at all intrinsically bad.      I do believe that in 99.99% of cases it is very unhealthy.


Not intrinsically bad at all, very normal in fact. This is why we have an issur  of "לֹ֥א תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם אשר אתם זונים אחריהם"  Because we desire it in our hearts.


What is wrong in the the Torah is the particular sexual act, NOT the person. "Thou shalt not lie with a man after the manner of a woman: it is an abomination." The Torah is not judging the person; only the behavior.      וְאֶ֨ת־זָכָ֔ר לֹ֥א תִשְׁכַּ֖ב מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֑ה תּוֹעֵבָ֖ה הִֽוא׃

So not intrinsically bad at all.       Not intrinsically unhealthy.      It depends on a lot of variables. (is he attracted to woman too, what type of boys, how strong is the desire, how stable and in control he is etc etc etc.) I would say that yes, many times it is unhealthy, Although many times its not. Depends on the person.


It can definitely help.  It is fairly limited in helping, because it doesn't focus on feelings that cause thoughts, but rather on the thoughts that are a result of feelings.  What CBT calls "Core Beliefs" is were CBT needs to end, and healing needs to take place on what is causing the "core beliefs. Hint; feelings.  

​So i want to be clear. Not only is CBT helpful, it is a must. We need to work with thoughts too. But if we primarily focus on thoughts and not the feelings causing thoughts, we wont heal. Instead we will be mitigating the damage. All progress starts with CBT, almost all progress needs to continue with feelings based work.

You have to understand that CBT was developed in the 1960s. The world of neurobiology, phycology and anything brain-related has exploded. Dr Perry, Bessel van der Kolk, Peter Levine, Francine Shapiro, Janina Fisher, Judith Herman, Richard Schwartz, Pat Ogden, Janice Webb,Stephen Porges, Alexander McFarland. The list is endless. There is mountains of new research which explains how our brains work.  Hint; our brains revolve mostly around our feelings, which then affects our thoughts. We can know something cosciesly, for example im safe or im smart, but if he doesn't feel that way, it didn't help him heal. 

Judith Beck herself, --the leader of the CBT Beck institute (they train CBT therapists worldwide, over 120,000 have been trained by the institute) who runs the therapy developed and passed over by her father to her, --- said, that if a client knows something cognitively but doesn't feel that way, other modalities are needed!!  Feelings work is needed, because CBT cant address feelings underlying "core beliefs". 

You can listen to her on Mordechai Weinberger's, emotional awareness hotline.  718-298-2011    Its extension 3, then number #951   Its somewhere about 45 minutes into the interview.

Thank you so much, I think that clears up a lot of my questions.
another point, hirhurei aveira kashin me'aveira atzmo...

So I think we should differentiate between a general feeling of attraction towards a group, or actual thoughts of committing an aveira with them. 

frank.lee wrote on 13 Dec 2022 00:58:

Absolutely. Thinking about doing an act is definitely wrong. The missilas yesharim actually says its the worst form of znus. In Perek Daled as well.
ועל זה הדרך אסרו בענין זהשל העריות כל מה שהוא ממינו של הזנות, או הקרוב אליו, יהיה באיזה חוש שיהיה, דהיינו, בין במעשה, בין בראיה, בין בדבור, בין בשמיעה, ואפילו במחשבה.
"In this manner, the Sages prohibited on the matter of forbidden relations all that resembles and draws a person close to forbidden relations, however way that may be, namely, whether it be in deed, in sight, in speech, in hearing or even in thought."


בענין המחשבה, כבר אמרו בתחלת הברייתא שלנו (ע"ז כ): ונשמרת מכל דבר רע, שלא יהרהר אדם ביום וכו', ואמרו עוד (יומא כט): הרהורי עברה קשים מעבירה, ומקרא מלא הוא (משלי טו): תועבת ה' מחשבות רע.
"Regarding "thought" our Sages already mentioned in the beginning of our Beraitha: "'you shall keep yourself from every evil thing' (Devarim 23:10) - From here R. Pinchas b. Yair said that a person should not have [impure] thoughts in his heart, and thus bring himself to have impurity at night" (Ketubot 46a). They further said: "thoughts of sin are worse than the sin itself" (Yoma 29a) and scripture says explicitly: "evil thoughts are an abomination to G-d" (Mishlei 15:26)."

Lol i just realized that i quoted what you already quoted in your post. lo freaken l

frank.lee wrote on 13 Dec 2022 00:58:

Can you write out what you believe the answers are to your 7 questions? id love to hear your thoughts.

Human wrote:

Hi Human Being, who I love and respect! You bring so much insight and passion to this platform! responding to your request here. Sorry for formatting...

we can try our thoughts, feelings, attractions. I did such work myself in therapy. Also I spoke to a therapist who specializes with SSA and he has experience helping people do that.

the Torah wants us to have clean minds and thoughts

as I wrote recently, you can differentiate with gradations, between attraction and thoughts of aveiras. I think they are bad and/or unhealthy. In my mind, healthy is when it can be followed and channeled to get married and have a great marriage.


All the above, same. Intrinsically bad. Need to learn how to deal with them. Accept as the reality. Not as good. Ignore. Thought surf. Acknowledge. Distract etc.


here I mention Troubling Thoughts. That can encompass many thoughts that can disturb us. The above, or other obsessive, frightening, limiting or handicapping thoughts. From my understanding and experience, therapy can help.

Hi Human Being. Above are my answers to my questions, as you requested. Pardon the unclear formatting. After each quote section should be my answer, ie. My opinion.

That was a nice Convo. I hope we have many more:-)

I have not been active on GYE for years, but happened to come across this discussion. I really appreciate Human Being starting this conversation. I wish I saw a post like this 25 years ago… I’m in my 40s married with kids.. Since my teens I’ve been attracted to teen boys… It was not until I was close to 30 and in a deep depression did I seek help and share with anyone my attractions. It’s now over 10 years and I’ve been through several therapist, been in multiple support groups, attend multiple workshops and many other recovery related things. Some of it extremely helpful and some of it not. Even the unhelpful things have been learning experiences. B”H I’ve grown tremendously over the years and in so much better place.

I wanted to make one point… From a Torah perspective a married women is just as assur as any “creepy thing” and lust is lust no matter what one is triggered by. If you replace attracted to a married women with child, teen, ect.  many arguments would go away. Let’s use the example of a man who is attracted to his neighbor’s wife… Would anyone argue he’s a danger to her simple because he’s attracted her? Now let’s say he becomes obsessed with her… without getting too detailed… he can’t get her out of his mind… and if Chas v’shalom he would try to do anything to her everyone would agree he has a lust problem and needs professional help. Now let’s take someone who is attracted to his neighbor’s child. He has worked on his lust and guards his eyes eyes and thoughts to a point where he has no impact on his thoughts or actions. Who better the first guy with a “normal” attraction or the second guy with a “creepy” attraction?

sleepy wrote on 29 Dec 2022 16:18:

Sleepy, how does your karma keep getting lower? I never saw karma move so far so fast in either direction!!

sleepy wrote on 29 Dec 2022 01:35:

Just take out the word normal. I don't know the statistics, but I don't think that is too common of a desire. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But the rest of what you wrote, absolutely. 
​If you do disrespect such a person for the desires they didn't choose to have, can you explain to me why?