I know that most people on GYE are Frum. I must say that I am not. I hate labels, but if I had to label myself, it would be Modern Orthodox. I live in the real world and see things daily that many of you do not. I am around women all day, and while I may notice their dress, I do not pay much attention to them. They are not a "trigger" for me.

I am quite familiar with the religious neighborhoods in Brooklyn, some of my best friends live there, and I am there a few times a month at least. My question to all of you is. Do you think that your surroundings hurt your chances of being "clean and free from P and M ?". I am reading stories about some of you mistakenly bumping into a woman in a grocery store as something that can send you off the deep end or a woman crossing the road as the reason that you fall. 

I know that we all have triggers, but it seems that many of you are in almost impossible situations. Condemnations from your community and families can lead you to dark places and to the point of almost living two different lives.  So my question as a non-frum is, "Do you think that your lifestyle is making this harder on you?"

On a personal level, If I got rid of my smartphone and computer, I could beat this. All my triggers live on this small screen, not in the real world.

I hope this question is taken in the manner it is intended. I have nothing but love and respect for your communities. 

for the record, we don't use the word frum in my house. we don't judge anyone else's level of observance. we leave that to hashem. everyone has their struggles and it would not be fair to label anyone based on a mitzvah that they do or don't keep.

If you see things all the time that you don't pay attention to then you can consider yourself a tzadik. Not taking a second look is an act of self restraint. It is the times that we do notice and that we do pay attention that have a negative effect on us.

in my opinion and experience, living in a sheltered environment (if that still exists!) does not make it harder. lack of education and knowledge of how to handle the natural desire that all healthy men will ultimately experience makes it harder.

i lived two lives for a long time. i don't believe that my lifestyle made it harder. Sure, if i was not at all religious and not married i may have not had to compartmentalize, but that is not a given... anyone who is pushing the limits of the society in which he is living will have to deal with these decisions.

I can say with certainty that my lifestyle and the ideals with which i grew up were the reasons that i ultimately was able to pull myself free.

On a personal level, i used my smartphone all the time to access all sorts of stuff, but my smartphone was not even 1% of the problem. the problem was in me. i kept the smartphone and changed myself.

I used to say the same.
Then I stopped using the small (or big) screen, and a new world opened up before me.
In full color.

guardyoureyes.com/forum/4-On-the-Way-to-90-Days/381077-For-the-bochrim-by-the-bochrim?limit=15&start=105#384346

Vehkam wrote on 23 Aug 2022 12:20:

Never good to judge others, but people are frum or they're not - it's not based upon one mitzvah. 

Vehkam wrote on 23 Aug 2022 12:20:

Imho and experience, livin' in a sheltered environment, which does still exist, does make it harder. Exactly as the original poster mentioned. One who is not used to talkin' or conversin' with women can get triggered in a stronger way when confronted with a real live woman in the elevator.

Vehkam wrote on 23 Aug 2022 12:20:

That is very commendable of you; lo kal adam zocheh l'kach. I have tried the same with a varied amount of success.

Understood. My point is not to keep the smartphone. My point is more so that if someone is hooked on this stuff It is usually not sufficient to do remove access… we will usually find another way to access when we have the desires. The more you change yourself the less likely you are to follow those desires

There is a lot of gray area and overlap. If someone is not observant then they are non-observant. If someone is observant but struggles in certain areas we avoid labeling them.

cordnoy wrote on 23 Aug 2022 15:20:

I don’t deny that being faced with a new situation for someone that is sheltered will probably be more triggering.  However if someone was properly taught how to deal with those triggers they will quickly learn how to move on from them.  In my opinion- in the bigger scheme of things it should not be harder for someone to stay clean just because they led a sheltered life.  I understood that to be the original question. 

I apologize if "frum" is not the right term. Maybe I should have used "observant" ?

"I can say with certainty that my lifestyle and the ideals with which I grew up were the reasons that I ultimately was able to pull myself free"....So you feel that your community has made it easier than someone from a less observant community?

As far as smartphones. Of course, changing yourself is the goal, but like an alcoholic, keeping booze in the house is dangerous when trying to break free. The smartphone, for me, is the single biggest problem.

Having struggled with this while living in both types of communities, and seen other doing the same, i think it's amix. Living in anonsheltered enviroment. I was less vulnerable to seeing a woman, etc, but I was also much closer to doing much worse. There was a level of permissibility, at least where I lived and went to school. SOme people...anyway, it depends where you are and who you are around.
 I would get the same way when i'd be falling deep, simple things dont pull me because I'm past that level. 

I agree there are downsides to sheltering, but much those only come into play when the walls crack open. but I dont feel exposing  people from childhood until they build up a resistance is better. If you keep your child away from literal garbage, and then they come into contact, they're more likely to get sick than someone who played in it and built a resistance. But that doesnt mean the kid given free reign is going to come out healthier.

Of course if I grew up in a more frum area, I might feel different.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 23 Aug 2022 15:58:

No apologies necessary. I was trying to say that I don’t consider myself on a higher level just because I have a “frum” lifestyle. 


if I was less idealistic it would have been much harder for me to pull myself out.  But people from less observant communities can also be idealistic so it really wasn’t a complete answer.  

The way it manifested itself for me was that I was able to go back to the idealism of my youth.  I did keep a smart phone but I deleted every app that did not have a purpose I don’t watch TV I don’t listen to the radio and I don’t search the web without a specific purpose.  if I was still watching movies and TV shows then I imagine I would have a much harder time being successful.  

I still go into the city every week and see the same things that you see. I have strong motivation to connect to Hashem and that keeps my desire to stay clean stronger than the desire to look at anything. (So far bE”h)

My main motivation is to do what HaShem wants me to do. I also try my best to remain as idealistic as possible, even as the world seems geared to drag you into the mud whenever it can. Not watching TV and limiting the web is great, and I do the same with varying levels of success. Before smartphones, it was much easier to remain clean. I truly believe that the Smartphone/Internet is the biggest reason so many people struggle. 

I also know that the problem is within me and not the device. It is a daily struggle, and I will just keep plowing ahead. When I am in Brooklyn and see the wonderful communities and people, I think how nice it would be to live there and be embraced and surrounded by so many like-minded people. It was only recently did I think that maybe the closeness of the community might be an additional hurdle to overcome when it comes to this stuff.

I am thrilled to hear that it helps in most cases. 

I agree with you when it comes to pornography While I did struggle before the internet and smartphones, it took a lot more time and effort.  

I gain a lot from reading the battle of the generation every night. It helps maintain my positive perspective towards these challenges and reinforces the tools necessary to stay on track.