Kanesher, beautiful summary of the thread!

You have a talent for summarizing and seeing to the core of issues. (Which reminds me, how did the magnum opus on Baba Basra come out in the end?)

And lastly - GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU, BRO!! I've been thinking of you lately, wondering where you're at.

Thanks Guard! I'll e-mail you more reid...

But I had another thought, and I just want to give a little for perspective on this discussion. IT IS IMPORTANT! and Dov is still 100% right. But on the way to rock bottom, we have to realize that it's no external factor. It's not what we're missing. Not our wives waist lines. No our bosses, our jobs, our yeshivas, parents or societies. But on the way to rock bottom, it may be useful to analyze each of those issues and truly see that it's not it. FOr instance, two types of answers are important - either

1) "I have a drop-dead gorgeous wife and everyone looks at her except me; I prefer ugly girls in porn land"

2) "I used to think my wife was ugly. Then I dropped this habit and remembered why I married her in the first place. And viola, she started acting like that girl I married in the first place! Who knew acting like a jerk would push a woman away?"

both saying the same thing: "IT AIN"T THE WIFE!" - this was an important for me - on the journey to rock bottom. אין הדבר תלוי אלא בי - and that's why we'll probably keep having these discussions. But for Dov, and the rest of the recovered addicts, it's a little irrating, because it means we're still in an illusion. True, but I feel it's on the way out of the illusion, and hence important. The more we get the same answer over and over again - eventually we'll realize, it ain't going away based on any other factor.

Momo wrote on 27 Dec 2009 06:26:


Momo, my dear friend!

While I agree with you that a woman who dresses provocatively is doing a huge disservice to the world, herself, her husband, and the walrus, BUT that doesn't mean that one should not "wish" for a wife that he is attracted to on a very physical level, or be happy to be married to one. There is a huge world of difference between a "pretty and skinny wife" which is the topic of this forum and a p**n star.

If a man is married to someone he finds very attractive, and she dresses in a tzniyus way and acts in a 100% tzniyus manner, I think that is totally fine and good!

As far as men leering at your wife despite her being a total tzanua... there are perverts out there who will leer at anything in a skirt, be it chai, tzomeach, or domeim... so you can't dictate your life or wife by the lowest common denominator of a guy who five minutes after leering at your wife might be leering at a table leg that looks like a human leg....

לא עליך המלאכה לגמור - You can't be responsible for every perv out there (and yes, unfortunately I'm that perv sometime... I'm not trying to be demeaning to anyone, although leer is a harsh word, I don't know if actually leer....)

 ולא אתה בן חורין לבטל ממנה - But you do have a responsibility to make sure that the person you marry is not the type of person who will act or dress in an even slightly seductive manner

But that's just my opinion....

I DIDNT FOLLOW THIS WHOLE SHAKLA VITARYA

AS MY FREIND SAYS (EFSHAR LETAKAIN)

ICH HUBB MEIN EIGENER IN DEE HEIM

HABA THAT WAS GEVALDIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!

I'm really curious to know what bardichev's comment was before it was edited 

habaletaher wrote on 28 Dec 2009 16:39:


HA! Well said! :D :D :D :D :D

ark321 wrote on 28 Dec 2009 18:16:


Mistama, Guard just translated it into Yiddish!  ;D

habaletaher wrote on 28 Dec 2009 16:39:
I would venture to say that "Perv" is harsher than "leer".

Perverts is what we are - literally. We've taken something beautiful and holy, and twisted it. And we're trying to get back to where we need to be.

And we can be proud that we're doing what needs to be done to make things clean again.

silentbattle wrote on 28 Dec 2009 23:36:


Not perverts, addicts.

ark321 wrote on 28 Dec 2009 18:16:


He simply forgot to put the whole "Momo, my dear friend!" post into quotes in his reply... It looked like it was part of his post and was confusing.

Bardy Batchy, do you know how to "quote" someone? You need to press "Quote" when replying....

C'MON GUYS, THIS IS GETTING CRAZY!!! Skinny,pretty#?% I think we should close this thread and start a new one 'TIPS FOR THOSE GOING ON A DATE'!!!

Ha - dating tips for addicts!

Kedusha - we may be addicts, but the fact is that we're living a twisted version of sexuality. It's not a judgment, it's a fact.

silentbattle wrote on 29 Dec 2009 00:23:


I have to agree with Kedusha here... I used the word perv in a moment of midas hadin... If we see our mahus as pervs then we non-fixable, we are destined to live the sad life of a perv. If we see ourselves as addicts then we can learn to rise about our addiction and live a life of Kedusha.... See Kedusha, everyone wanna be like K!

loi-misyaeish wrote on 29 Dec 2009 00:13:
There's enough room for both threads, no need to close anything.
But what do you mean by "Dating tips"? U mean stam, or davka for addict inyanim?