guardureyes wrote on 26 Dec 2009 22:38:


I'm happy for your dance, but Dov's question to me was just a little out of place...

ark321 wrote on 27 Dec 2009 11:08:


Oh well, then I guess I must indeed be a little weird....  :-[  cuz I thought it was the only question that was really relevant (you know, the elephant in the room  )

Maybe read it again.

I would print it out, frame it, and hang it on the wall.

This paradigm shift in our thinking will not only answer your question, it will also give you recovery and make you a much better and more useful person.

Hey Guard, no reason to get like that! The reality is, that until people experience what it means to truly do something for someone else, Dov's whole drasha is chinese to them. To many, the concept of 'be focused on what's good for your wife - instead of what's good for you' is an impossible lala-land chessed ideal. That's just the world we live in. Good luck showing everyone the emes - if you dare to risk being looked at as a Carlebach hippie.

KG, no reason to be nasty there! But anyway you're right, of course we are all striving for that, but it's something that can take many years to really acheive it.

My apologies for being frustrated.

woops, did I come off as "nasty" or something?  :-\ I didn't mean it that way at all... It's just a shame that it takes us addicts sometimes so long - and so many falls - until we finally are ready to make that shift in our thinking a priority.

i forgive you

Hi Ark!

Truth is, when you think about the shidduch system, it's a very goal-oriented system. Which is good, because it's a system put into place to accomplish a specific goal (we can argue another time about details that could be tweaked to make it more efficient, 'kay?).

The problem with that is, of course, that it becomes all about, "what are you looking for?" Shadchanim very rarely ask, "so, what have you done recently with the goal in mind of making yourself a better husband for your wife?"

So, we can easily become focused on what WE want. And Dov and Guard are right...we need to remind ourselves, for every time we talk about what we want and need (which could be valid), we also need to ask ourselves Dov's question (preferably  after we're done talking to the shadchan, or we won't get many suggestions at all - strangely, shadchanim aren't into guys that talk to themselves, even if they're saying intelligent things).

Thanks Silent. You make alot of sense. Did you read Reply #51 on this post? that was my original intention with this thread.

Dov's question is not just something to ask with regards to shidduchim, it's an entire attitude change that will make you into so much a better person, that automatically you'll have the best girls running after you  

See "Dating Experience" from Tomim in Chizuk e-mail #648 on this page.

Reb Guard, I understand that - I was simply pointing out that in particular when it comes to shidduchim, it's important to realize that, especially since at that point, we're looking for the "things that we want." But yes, it's a different focus, that applies no matter where we are in life, and doesn't really have anything to do with dating, per se.

Reb Ark - Yes, I know that you're talking about being married. However, I think that the question is still at LEAST as important for those of us who are single.

Especially since you've already gotten your answer from the guys on the forum with thin, pretty wives.

thanks silent

going back to the original question. i want to answer that of course the problem doesn't go and as proof single men that have the problem don't get cured when they get married as you can see from the testimonials and i know from myself

Great thread!

to summarize the basic reid

-Guys with classic drop dead gorgeous wives struggle too. If you're an addict, you're an addict.

-Guys who are not attracted to their should not think that their wives are the problem. THEY are the problem - actually, lust.

-You gotta be attracted when you marry someone - for you, not for your friends.

-This who discussion reveals that we still need to let go of our "selfness"; hence, our most lovable pain-in-the-butt I know thinks we still need to think about giving and not taking. "If I had a prettier wife, would I have MORE?" means that we still need MORE. We need to let go of MORE. MORE MORE MORE! Because then we'll never be satisfied. We need to emphasis giving to our wives, to our communities, to our children. As long as we focus on what is MORE - essentially, we are asking "if I had MORE would I stop taking MORE in porn?: while it's the moreness that's the problem.

great thread, these issues have been on my mind for a while.

His majesty the pain-in-butt shlita will explain!

Right on, K-NESH! Did you hear the holy Battleworn willbe joining us this time?? Extra incentive? :D ;D