KG - I can't claim to be familiar with all areas of this discussion, but from everything I've heard, gedolei yisroel have never viewed this as something to avoid. There's a tosefos (in pesachim, maybe?) that clearly says talmidei chachamim give to their wives in this way.

As far as attraction...I'm not married, but I have been in shidduchim for a while, as well as having been in unhealthy relationships. I've also heard advice from various rabbanim on the topic.

BecomeHoly - I'd like to point out something, and I htink it's an area that a LOT of people make a mistake in, myself included. I just feel like at least, I sometimes catch myself. When you're dating someone, it's absolutely irrelevant whether "someone" would find her attractive. The ONLY thing that you need to figure out, in this area, is whether or not YOU find her attractive. Now here comes the complicated part, and I know I've had to struggle with this: If there's a problem, you need to figure out if 1) you're not attracted to this girl, or 2) this girl is not the type of girl you've always thought of yourself as being attracted to (or always thought of yourself marrying).

If it's #1, then end it. If it's #2, but you realize that you actually find this girl attractive, even though you never imagined yourself being attracted to this type, then go for it!

And yes, I believe very strongly that we become more attracted to people as we get to know them better and connect with them on a deeper level. As time goes on, we focus on the positive aspects of their looks, and they truly become more beautiful, as their inner beauty shines through, and we see their outer beauty in a clearer way, as well. Sometimes, though, we just don't like someone's looks. And in that case, we have to be honest (with ourselves - I wouldn't recommend SAYING that to her :D).

Dear Ark321 -

Please bear with me on this.

A rebbi of mine, who was a great gadol b'yisrael (and my mesader kiddushin) told us in a shmooz that being in yeshiva is all about self-development, improving your learning ability and your knowledge, your quality of kiyum hamitzvos, learning how to be a real y'rei Shomayim, and doing teshuva.

In other words, it's basically a self-centered endeavor. Right? He didn't say it's bad, mind you, just that it is self-centered, because it has to be.

Even working on your anivus is basically a self-centered activity, all Novardok jokes aside...but what else are we to do. The job needs to get done somehow! "im ein anee lee mee lee"!

Now, this being the case, it seems to me that for a normal person, the "system" should work just fine. Just about every addict that I have met is a self-absorbed person. Being a deeply sensitive and spiritually aware person who is ashamed and guilty will do that you you, you know.
So, I think that the yeshivishe system - which I would not replace for anything - has an inherent problem for addicts. It stokes the flames of self-absorption and self-centerdness tremendously, by telling us that these are wonderful things. Not being selfish, but being basically totally self-centered and self-absorbed.

Do you get me so far, Ark?

Whether you, Ark, have a porn and/or masturbation problem or not and whether or not you are an addict, I have this to ask you about your concerns:

While the points you raise make for interesting moral, mental, and Torah hashkofa exercises, the elephant in the room is: when will you turn from being all wrapped up in what you need and want, and open yourself up to making your main focus in all your avodah becoming the man your future wife will need and want?

All the great gems that the folks here have dropped for us will likely remain useless tools, as long as they are all about "finally" satisfying ourselves. Your context is far more important than your facts or knowledge. And context is real hard to measure. Only Hashem, and you in your own heart, can tell. It's what the Shulchan Aruch is referring to when it says "kol ma'asecha l'Shem Shomayim". And that mainly means not l'shem us. Simple.
It's what the alcoholics call the Third Step.
After that's changed, what concerns you will change to matters that really have a solution.
Hatzlocha!

Kedusha wrote on 25 Dec 2009 12:23:


And don't get me started regarding this Shtus about asking the girl's dress size before agreeing to go out (and not agreeing, unless the size indicates that the girl is anorexic!).  When I was married over a dozen years, I first found out what my wife's dress size was when we were going out!

I hear ya, kedusha! Never done that, don't plan to - besides, from what I understand, it makes no sense anyway, since (within reason), dress size doesn't really say that much about girls.

And the only time I was told a dress size (without my asking), they lied by about 6-8 sizes, nearest I can figure (based on my admittedly limited knowledge of how sizes work). :D ;D

As an aside, when people call me about shidduchim, I don't even ask about looks - because that's something I need to decide myself. Someone once called me about a girl,

Me: "OK, can you give me her basic information?"

Shadchan: "She's blonde, about 5'6"..."

Me: "Uh, I mean like, where's she from, what seminary did she go to...you know, so I can find out about her?"

:D

silentbattle wrote on 25 Dec 2009 14:37:


Way to go, Silent!

silentbattle wrote on 25 Dec 2009 14:37:


does it mean i'm really self-centered if that made me cry?
ok, not really cry. but seriously? arrrrrrrrrggggggg

I know of one guy who is bashing his head against his wall because he is have a very rough time with his pretty and slim wife

be careful what what you ask for and what you are looking for

from the outside of the circle it looks like Heaven and Bliss,but once you step inside,WELCOME TO HELL.

Looks are very decieving

nothing wrong with marrying a pretty girl, but before you do,you do an MRI exam on her inner spiritual and emotional state.

Not doing so is suicide.

there are many bathroom deoderants that  smell very nice,even pleasant.But if your stuck there, it's bad news

Well said, Yechida!

As an aside, I should mention that I have said "no" to girls based on looks (and as an aside, my sister, who's super-yeshivish, married to a long-term learner, etc, had said no to guys based on looks). But I did so when I was fairly certain that it was not going to go away (I basically asked myself, "in a year from now, will I look back and say "wow, I'm glad i got past that!"? No. I'm going to still be bothered by this issue."), and had discussed it with my rebbe. And honestly, it was hard - she was fantastic in so many ways - smart, deep, cool, interesting...I felt like it was so wrong to say no because of such a shallow reason! But I realized that it was just the yetzer hora saying that to me. She's a wonderful girl - but clearly, she's not for me (even though she was tall and blonde :D :D :D).

on the flip side I will tell you that bochurim went to Rav Pam because they liked a girl alot ,good hearted,good middos ect, but there was something about her looks that bothered them,and they actually felt bad even bringing it up,but it bothered them,and they brought it up and Rav Pam told them to break it off.

so there is a legitimate  and normal and natural and inborn need to find a wife that is attractive to you.and Rav Pam understood this well.

It is just that some boys take this WAY WAY TOO FAR.

Yechida - Without (hopefully) being too arrogant, I think the line is what I mentioned before - is it an issue of "what she looks like," or "am I, personally, attracted to her."

Although admittedly, sometimes it's hard to figure out exactly where that line is. I once spent three dates before I decided that I was attracted to her, even though she wasn't the type of girl I'd ever pictured myself marrying (P.S. - once I got past that, I immediately realized that she had other issues, and worse, that when I tried to bring them up, she avoided them.)

Reb BecomeHoly - I agree that you can't marry potential - you need to be able to enjoy being with her as she is (physically, emotionally, spiritually). However, I also think that we have to be very careful in deciding where the line is (like I said before). And being a guy who's in pretty good shape myself, I can understand how that can be difficult sometimes.

indeed,silent battle,this is what you said before.

you can usually test yourself whether you are experiencing an unhealthy attaction  or a healthy one.

if when interacting,are you being (more or less) yourself,or are you speaking and thinking totally out of your basic character?

At work or at a vort or simcha,I have seen people literally go through a personality change  when talking to a pretty woman

It's hysterically funny.

Very true - although, we can do that with anything we find attractive - when I'm going out with a girl that's really special, I'm a bit more careful in how I portray myself. Not lying obviously, and not being someone else, but in being the best "me" that I can.

And you're absolutely right about being aware of how attraction is affecting us. But from there, I think it's also a grey area. For example, I was going out with a girl a few years ago (possibly one of the prettiest girls I've ever dated). And although we had certain hashkafic differences, I decided to go out once more. And I don't think it was wrong - things weren't 100% clearly not for me(it's not like she was a devout worshiper of avodah zorah :D), and her looks encouraged me to give it another try, which I might otherwise not have done.

On the other hand, if I hadn't been aware that it was her looks encouraging me to give it another try, that would be a much bigger problem.

you are doing fine.you daven, and you think things through in between dates, and you know not to fall prey to the common errors that is within human nature to fall into.because you are aware of the pitfalls,with Hashem's help, you will do very well.  Have a good Shabbos, my friend

Good shabbos!

And Habib - if I feel like thumping the shadchan on the head, I can only imagine what a girl must feel like (no, I can't really imagine, actually)...

...just throwing in that I feel this entire discussion is nice in theory, but still feel strongly that the missing context is very loud in its absence. Good Shabbos!!!!!!

Sincerely,

- a pain in the butt