Dear Briut.  I most respectfully submit my contradictory experience: 

I am one of the "homely, short (5'3"), balding, paunchy (never mind the numbers) nebacche" men. 

Three marriages.  Two kids from on and one from another.  All three trophies.  All three failed.  Because of me, not them.  The axiom, "it takes two..." didn't hold here.  I'll spare you the details.

I was and am an arrogant selfish man.  I'll tell you how I know.  A shadchin arranged I meet a woman my age (63).  On our meeting, she seemed like a lovely, though unattractive woman( And I don't mean by porn standards).  I declined to go farther. 
Why?  Not because of any character traits.  Because she was unattractive. Period.

So, nothing's changed in the self-centered department (and that is NOT lashon'ora on myself.)  And no doubt any relationship I would get into now with an attractive woman would end like the others.  And it would be because of ME, not them.  So I reamain, B"H and GYE, celibate, unless and until I hear otherwise from HKBH.

I don't think that one needs to be apologetic about that. It's obviously not the only thing to look for but it is a legitimate reason to decline and it doesn't show that you are selfish/self centered IMHO.

Yeah Briut!

I also want to disagree with your theory. My wife is very attractive and yet she married a good looking guy.......Hey wait one second! You aren't saying she thinks I'm...... No! can't be! That's ridiculous! Ha! The mere thought is just plain silly! Silly! Silly! You hear me! I can't believe we are even discussing this. Maybe I'll just delete this post.......But what if......

Me3 wrote on 09 Nov 2010 20:01:

Well, mememe, the point is that SHE thinks you're beautiful. You're comforting and safe and loving and all that stuff that chicks dig. Why should she care if you're losing your hair or getting a paunch or whatever? You think she married you in the first place because you looked like a star (movie, porn, bais medresh, whatever)?? And if she doesn't care, then neither do you!

Beautiful is in the eyes of the beholder.

Aw Shucks! :-[

Shucks, schmucks.

...wait a minute, that didn't work out the way I meant....

We are not healthy, we lust. Lusting is not normal attraction. It is a whole we are trying to fill, and we can never. It is not desire it is hiding from our problem with lust.

Read posts from dov on this matter.

Hatzlacha

Generally speaking, if we look at other women, live or virtual, we'll have problems regardless of what our wife looks like.  If we look at no other women (for pleasure), our wives will start to be tremendously attractive to us.

Kedusha wrote on 10 Nov 2010 15:07:


so very, very true

as Dov recently wrote beshem Chazal, kol hanosen einav bemah shein lo, mah sheyesh lo notlin haimeno

at least with me, when i would look at others and lust i would think how unfair and second-rate my 'portion' is. and no amount of ideas and concepts would shake that idea. but a tekufah of shemiras einayim did what all the mussar drushas did not do. it is like crossing over to the other side of a high fence and trying to convey how things look to someone still behind it. it is very hard to get the idea through without bringing him across the fence.

Say Reuven eats his fill at a Kiddush, and has no appetite for the Shabbos Seudah.  So, as to not make his wife feel bad, he eats anyway, but it has no Taam.  He feels like a Tzaddik - man, what mesiras nefesh I put myself through, just so my wife wouldn't feel bad!  But, does he have Hakaras Hatov for all the effort his wife put into preparing the Seudah?  That far he doesn't go - after all, he was full anyway, and would have preferred to just hit the pillow!  His wife, really, should have Hakaras Hatov to him for being so considerate!  Look how unfair that is to his wife - she put in all the effort, and he has no appreciation whatsoever, simply because he ruined his appetite.

The same is true when a husband allows his eyes to stray.  He doesn't feel all that attracted to his wife anymore, and any attention he gives her makes him feel like a Tzaddik.  Certainly, he doesn't appreciate all her efforts, to look nice for him, etc.  By ruining his appetite for a healthy attraction to his wife, he has done her, himself, and their marriage a tremendous disservice.

Kedusha, that was brilliant!

Holy Yid wrote on 10 Nov 2010 20:31:


Holy Yid, you're putting it toooooooo mildly.


Kedusha, that was brilliant!!!!!!!!!

I'll second that.

Correction:  Kedusha is brilliant!

I stand corrected



Sorry, Kedusha  :-[