Briut:

hmm...ok, lets talk about attractive (or ugly as a cow) - even though this is not the real issue, but I'll come back to the issue later.

1st guy: attractive wife...but does not give her husband any respect, and not too open to his advances in the bedroom...her focus is to look attractive..its the "shell" that counts...nothign more doing on the inside

2nd guy: wife as ugly as a cow...treats him with respect, talks with him, listens to him, playful in the bedroom.

(the stroies on each on can be reversed - does not matter )
If I knew how to set up a poll, I'd do so - but I don't.

Which of the two guys is going to be more inclined to run to p**n?

ans: The one with the most internal RID.
Is not about our wives - its about ourself!

and that was my only point.
besides its known that beauty is only a lure (lore? )  - after we are married and we get to truely know the person and see their inner beuauty - the outer beauty becomes less importnat.

(thankfully this is true - because I look in the mirror sometimes and wonder who this OLD MAN my wife marries is? and what she ever saw in  such an old hairy geezer. )

Aha, DII, I now believe we're "on the same page" with your most recent post.

I agree:  A woman's looks are irrelevant to a man's lust issues. The lust issues are internal to the man. I'm maskim (in agreement 100%).

That would also mean, of course, that bad middos etc are irrelevant, too. The lust issues are internal to the man.

And, of course, that's not the end of the discussion... because lust issues aren't the end of the picture. There can be OTHER issues at play far beyond lust.

(And of course, all issues interact and so even these OTHER issues might have some impact on LUST issues, but I shouldn't stray too far afield.)

So as to the "lust" issues, I'd say that looks make no difference. And as to non-lust issues, there could be challenges regarding looks, spending habits, libido, parenting styles, choice in breakfast cereals (okay, strike that last one...), whatever.

We might THINK our lust is about finding the wife who looks like the babe on the screen. But we'd be wrong.

How does this sound, DII and others?

I hear that lust is primarily the individuals insides and not because of the "other"......

But you really think that having a wife open, respectful, loving, caring, playful, etc. verses the opposite....
that these factors have 0% impact at all....?

hmmm....


how about if we ask the question another way...
lets assume a guy marries a VERY Attactive wife - the top, model quality!

how long she remain attactive to him?

- should we ask Tiger Woods?


the Torah teachs us that which a person lusts after, he comes to hate.
(story of Amnon and Tamar I think - but I could be wrong, better to ask some of our GYE scholars. )

Rabbi Arush ( Garden of Peace) points out - treat your wife like a queen, she will become as beautiful as a queen to you.

(BTW - I am not knocking the attractive side, it is very important, too - but not the only thing)

DovInIsrael wrote on 17 Mar 2010 17:13:


Seems like you agree to some extent.... :-\

dark:

there was  movie (shhhh...dont tell anyone we were discussing such things) many years called the Shining - with Jack nicolson ... there was scene in the movie where the "beautiful" woman - when scene in the mirror was really an old, scabby old lady...

I dont remember the rest of the movie - nor do I care to depbate with our movie experts on line...

but in hindsight - it seems to me like all women are beautiful, and they are all equally ugly.

and that is the illusion of p**n...misleads us to believe that there is such a thing as a MORE attactive spouse then the one we are with ...

it is the whole foundation of click-and-flick...one is drawn in to click so rapidly they dont have time to "think" about the image they are watching...

how come we never see: our fav stars - with and without make up?
or "where are they now"our fav stars from the past years - what do they look like now??

becasue attraction wears off - our eyes become numb to what we see - and will always need new stimulation

maybe its biological - or maybe once we find our own (self) image  - we dont need to get lost in someone else's  image..

speaking of image - I posted something on the topic at:
rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=2010.0


hang in there holy brother- you are AWESOME and doing great!


dovinisrael

DovInIsrael wrote on 17 Mar 2010 17:13:


Yow, I hear all of that!




My lust is simply about putting me and my inner experience of pleasure at the center of the relationship I have with my wife. (And at the center of everything else, ultimately.)
By definition, an inner experience of pleasure can't actually be shared. I can describe it to you, but we can't ever feel my feelings together. (Our personal experiences are always going to be a bit different, besides.)
Therefore, lust has no shaychus to true Connection, or to true giving. It therefore has nothing to do with the real middah of Yesod, at all. Lust is about taking. It's like a virus that takes from it's "donor" and throws it a bone to keep the pipeline open.
So when lust fills my heart, r"l, I say: "Once I am 'done', my overused and bewildered wife, you are useful only inasmuch as you may help me keep getting more of what I want. So, I'll work hard for that. But if you 'catch on' to my self-centerdness and immaturity, you are worse than irrelevant... So please ignore my behavior, or else it'll be so much harder for me to get that 'sholom bayis' (=cooperation from you) that I need so much! After all, how much manipulation can one man do? Give me a break."

If I see my wife this way, it won't be pretty. And that's exactly how I saw and treated my wife in one way or another for 11 years of marriage. I didn't make it appear that way - even to me - but that's what was going on inside, and she knew it. It's a miracle she could take it, at all. Maybe she really was wrong and by all rights should have left me out of healthy self-respect! Nu, I'm not complaining, trust me....
Amnon was disgusted with Tamar - not just because she was his lust-object - but because she was not happy being a lust object. She had a vision for life of kedusha, and she couldn't have had that with him, her half-brother! She couldn't fulfill his needs - lust needs bittul from the subject in order to work...hence Amnon's intense hatred. Bittul to me and you is where schmuts-women excel, of course! Real people are a quite different matter.  

Love is about giving, and finds it's fulfillment through Yesod: Connection. But true Connection requires Freedom. Freedom to be myself - even to leave, if I wish. Addicts don't like that freedom very much. They become dependent and demand dependence so their lust can last.
When love fills my heart, I say: "What can I, a free and valuable person with gifts, do for you? If you like what I can give, perhaps we can stay together and accomplish something useful! I like your gifts and they can help me to feel good and to be good. Just remember that I am here for you more than anyone else in this world, forever!" Now, that's a marriage! And if I screw up sometimes, why hide it? From my lifepartner?! Shtuyot! We support eachother...it can be hard sometimes and there are bumps on the road, but that's the general idea.
 
When my wife loves me and I know it, she is pretty in my eyes by definition. Looks are not relevant when I feel true love and devotion coming from from her. There is nothing more attractive to me than the eyes of the person who truly loves me: for me, and who wants to be connected to me more than anyone else in this world. And that connection is forever, not just in this world. I believe that it's natural to react that way. Why do you think Hashem's response (through the neviim) to our horrible backsliding was most often: "But I love you!, Ahavas Olam ahavtich!", "vo'e'evor olayich vo'er'eych misboseses b'domayich...etc." Yechezkel (and others) are packed with this cry from Hashem. He knows that once we actually know and accept that He looks at us with such a true love - truer than any other love ever - and that He wants us to be with Him forever, not just in this world....then nothing will stop us from running after Him as hard as we can for that Connection.
I'm not denying the power of "Isha y'fas mar'eh" as a positive thing in a marriage relationship. But do you hear me? It's a subset of love, not a cause for love. And all the looks in the world are a far, far cry from love itself.

I went on too long again...but did that help anybody? Was it "English" enough? Was it germain? Would anyone out there like a l'chayim?
Love,

Dov

Tried-123 wrote on 17 Mar 2010 16:42:


If someone is caught up in lust, then no - all of those things won't change him a bit. If he wants to work on being free of lust, and focusing on the real world, and real relationships, then yes - having someone like that can be helpful.

silentbattle wrote on 18 Mar 2010 03:56:


The dictionary defines lust as: "intense sexual desire"

So to someone with an intense sexual desire it makes absolutely no difference whats-so-ever whether their spouse is forthcoming... etc.

C'mon

C'mon.
I'd like to start a thread called: "Do people with an attractive (really, really nice) G-d have less emunah problems?"

Call a spade a spade. This whole issue boils down to one question: Are we able to be truly happy while ignoring the natural voice inside me that screams out for my fantasy wife? And even if we 'get' one, since real marriage doesn't lend itself to the consistent blazing sexuality I naturally crave, can I ever be truly happy w/o all my desires being well-fed, and burped? If not, then am I really to blame for acting out with fantasy and masturbation?

Theoretical discussions about "cows" are blurring the issue here. This is not gemarah pilpul, it's reality. The issue for 99% of us isn't the "cow" phenomenon, it is our hearts telling us, "well, she could have a prettier face, nose, eyes, better figure, proportions, etc.", or "well, she could be much better to me in the bedroom." These are all absolutely true, and all totally selfish concerns.
I know what they are because I have them all.
The way I'd put the question here is:
"Is it realistic for me to ever find total satisfaction without total sexual gratification in my wife? You say your hormonal juices are 'irrelevant' - I say you are a baldface liar. We all are and will always be selfish, period." And it's a fair question, to me.

But the real problem we have isn't our wives, it is the screaming lunatic inside us that will never, ever be bothered by the question: "Is it realistic for my wife to ever find total satisfaction with a self-centered (but very natural!) guy like me?" And that is often our undoing - it unravels the love our wives are ready to give us and makes them much uglier to us. We hold the key to their love - and it isn't our 'eivers', much as we like to dream that it'd do it for them....

Get me anyone?



A heart filled with lust doesn't really have any options, as SA's white book puts it: "The only way we knew to be free of it was to do it." I need more freedom, not better looks in my spouse.

Tried-123 wrote on 18 Mar 2010 05:14:


Just to clarify, you're defining "lust." We're talking about Lust. Capital L, the term implying a selfish focus on one's own gratification. "Lust" is bad, "lust" is not.

Dov - I think I'm going to need to think it over, but it definitely makes some kind of sense even after only 3 reads!

When you say that

dov wrote on 18 Mar 2010 13:43:


I'm understanding that you mean that if we're selfish, we close ourselves off, and don't allow our wives to connect with us, and enjoy the feeling of giving what they DO have to give...?

can you elaborate on this other point, too?

dov wrote on 18 Mar 2010 13:43:

dov wrote on 18 Mar 2010 13:43:


I just love this Guy.

Can u guys block me out this thread, whenever I read this one I fill up my rage tank

dov wrote on 18 Mar 2010 13:43:


I think I need another Dov-Translation.... (Dov you do it best -Howbout just a one or two sentence Chazoras Hashiur....)

First: Lets call a spade a spade:  If there would not be a whole list of severe punishments for sins then I WOULD HAVE AN ABSOLUTELY EASIER TIME relating to the concept of a loving G-d

So to answer your question: "Do people with an attractive (really, really nice) G-d have less emunah problems?"

YES ABSOLUTELY

I can't really comment on the rest of your post since I didn't fully get it...

ME3:Care to explain...?

jewinpain wrote on 18 Mar 2010 22:56:

I love that! I used to make lewd phone calls to women all the time and the compulsion made me so sick of myself...but I did it and worse anyway, for years and years. And if I talked to the same lady on a couple of occasions and got her #, I'd eventually beg her to "stop me" by hanging up on me the next time I'd call her! Then I'd try her again later repeatedly anyway! ....block me out of this thread, indeed!

If nothing else works, JIP, and you ever decide to turn to the Steps for help, you may discover that under all your pain and rage, your real problem is your own resentment. Nobody else has the power to give you rage. M emotions are my own problem and getting freedom requires me to let go of the right to hate the hell out of someone. Actually, out of anyone. I believe that very few people really want to "do bad" - we all do what has a payoff for us, whether it's really good for us or not. I acted out for 25 years (even though it was clearly screwing me up) because my heart told me it was in my very best interest to get that nice, warm, and loving feeling that porn gives me. You couldn't have convinced me otherwise at the time. The people we resent (evil jerks) are almost always people who have a very screwed-up sense of what is in their best interest.
They, of course, learned that somewhere...probably from their sick parents who carried around their own immense pain and resentment and just wouldn't let it go, either.
So, I say keep reading this thread and see how out of control you are. You may then say, "Holy (cow)! I am ruled by character defects that I can't fight!" Then you might read the book, "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions", by AA, on steps 4-7. If you work those steps your life will be changed drastically and probably forever. And your wife and children will be very grateful to you.

Maybe I am a fool...correction: I am a fool. But I am a fool who loves you, and all addicts.