Yes actually.
Basically your implying that when chazal say "Ha'ohr sheba machziram le'mutav", they are referring to a HUMAN, who just isn't keeping the torah properly... And for him if he learns - it will be machzir him b'teshuva. Unlike others who have not yet reached the level of "normal human", if they learn, it will not have the desired effect.
Tell me if you meant to say this.

Definitely interesting...I'm going to try to think about that before I learn, at least some of the time!

avodashashemyisbarach wrote on 18 Jan 2010 15:10:


Dear Avodas,

It is an absolute pleasure to welcome you to the GYE forum.  Please stay with us!

Once I'm welcoming you, let me do it right:

Welcome to our community! Once you’ve arrived, there’s no turning back. Everyone here will just grab a hold of you and pull you up, up, up!

Scientific studies have shown that it takes 90 days to change a neural thought pattern that was ingrained in the brain through addictive behaviors. Did you join the 90 day chart on-line? Sign up over here.

We get cries for help every day, by e-mail and on the forum. Tzuras Rabim Chatzi Nechama    And that is why we created the GYE handbooks (links below). If you read them well, from beginning to end, slowly, and try to implement what you read, you will find the answers within them to enable you to completely turn your life around. You’re worth it.

Also, join the daily Chizuk e-mail lists to get fresh chizuk every day, and post away on this forum. You will get tons of daily Chizuk and support. This disease can’t be beat alone. It works best when you get out of isolation!

GuardYourEyes also offers various free anonymous phone conferences, where you can join a group of other frum Yidden, along with an experienced sponsor. See this page for four different options. Our conferences are taking place daily, throughout the week… This would be a tremendous step in the right direction for you and help you learn freedom from this addiction. Not only will you learn the secret of the 12-Steps – which is known to be the world’s most powerful program for beating addiction having helped millions world wide, but joining the group will be another way of GETTING OUT OF ISOLATION and connecting with others who are going through what you are.

Let me tell you a little about the two GuardYourEyes handbooks. They lay down the cornerstone and foundation of our work, and they make our network much more effective and helpful for people.

You see, until now, people would often get "lost" when coming to our website, not knowing what tips and techniques to try. For example, a beginner wouldn’t jump straight into therapy or 12-Step groups, while on the other hand, someone whose addiction was more advanced wouldn’t be helped by the standard tips of "making fences" putting in "filters" etc… So it was essential to develop a handbook which details all the techniques and tools to dealing with this addiction in progressive order. Now with these handbooks, anyone can read through and see what steps they’ve tried already, and if those steps haven’t worked, they can continue on through the handbook where the steps become progressively more powerful and "addiction-oriented".

And the second handbook, called the "Attitude" handbook, can also help anyone, no matter what level of addiction they may have. Often people write in to us saying that had they only known the proper outlook & attitude that we try and share on the GuardYourEyes network when they were younger, they would have never fallen into an addiction in the first place! So we hope that through this handbook, many addictions will be prevented.

The handbooks are PDF files, set up as eBooks, and they have bookmarks and hyper-links in the Index, to make them easy to navigate.

Note: You might want to print them out to read away from the computer. Keep in mind though, that if you do this, you won’t be able to click on the many web links in the articles. But you can always come back to them later. The truth is, it’s anyway good to go through the whole handbook once without clicking on links, just to get an overview of all the tools available. Once you did that, you can start again from tool #1 and read each tool through more carefully, click the links and study each technique and assess whether you have tried it fully yet or not…

Right click on the links below and select "Save Link/Target As" to download the handbooks to your computer.

1) The GuardYourEyes Handbook

This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

2) The GuardYourEyes Attitude

The Attitude Handbook details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth…

May Hashem be with you!

dov wrote on 18 Jan 2010 23:23:


Dear Reb Dov,

I really tried to understand what you are saying, cuz this is something I struggle with... but I have no idea what you said. Are you saying that b/c I'm an addict, I'm nuts so my Torah can't work?

PLease clarify (and if you could please pm me with your reaponse as well, in case I miss it on the thread...)

Habaletaher and KG -

Yes.

All I am saying is that the missing ingredient for us frum guys to recover is not the "l'shem Shomayim" part. We know that idea already (though we are so upset at how we fail to put it into action, still doing crazy aveiros on a regular basis, etc.).
The one definite missing ingredient for me (and per AA, for many other addicts) was the "l'shem Atzmi"! Enlightened self-interest, as AA puts it. I always thought that the struggle of lust was between my doing what Hashem wants me to do, or not doing it.
I never got better that way.
I see now that I was completely wrong.
When Hashem brought "kol mageifosai el libecha" I got the missing ingredient. I began to actually do what is best for me, for a change. And since then, Iv'e been getting closer to Him than ever!

In recovery, the struggle of lust is actually being good to myself vs punishing myself. It's a self-centered affair, really.  עֵינַי תָּמִיד, אֶל-יְהוָה כִּי הוּא-יוֹצִיא מֵרֶשֶׁת רַגְלָי. I attach myself to Him because he saves me....enlightened self-interest is not such a bad thing, it seems. Especially if you are shayich to malchus and recognize that you have nothing of your own anyway, as Dovid hamelech saw.  
Once I have a "me", I can give that "me" to Hashem....not before. And I give Him most of the credit for getting me there, and keeping me there.

Is that any clearer? Do you see how it's the same thing i was always saying? My very first post on GYE was about this, too.

This is one of the most profound posts that Dov ever posted. If I came down to the world just to internalize and LIVE this, it would have been worth it!

To answer the Topics question: "Do men with attractive wives have less of a problem?"

Read this from Dr. Sorotsken:

  Many years ago I treated a young man who suffered from intense social insecurities, very poor self-esteem and same sex attraction (SSA). He had made progress with his issues and his teacher encouraged him to begin dating. One day he came to a session very despondent. He had gone out on a date with a very quiet girl. I wondered why he agreed to go out with such a girl when he knew from previous experience how much he disliked such dates. He explained that his teacher strongly suggested that he go out with this girl (even knowing that she was extremely quiet and being aware of this young man's strong aversion to such girls) because she was "gorgeous" and the teacher felt this would help him overcome his SSA issue. I found it sad that a respected teacher would subscribe to this superficial perspective of looks being more likely to make a girl attractive to him rather than looking for a girl with whom he'd feel comfortable. Feeling emotionally comfortable with a girl and desiring to feel closer, would be a much more likely path to physical attraction.

       

This story is not quite on point: if a person isn't really attracted to women, then even a very pretty woman won't make any difference.

I hear you... You have a valid point...

trying123 wrote on 18 Feb 2010 19:11:


Dark's message has been edited to make the point more tactfully.

surely you mean tactful? 

Either word would work. 

Some1 just sent me a link to this thread, so I'll put in my 2 cents
IMO, they do have less of a problem 100% but its not just her looks, she must be having high or atleast libidoas hubby, w/o that looks alone won't do it, but those 2 together, chaval al hazman

everyone is attractive to someone.

its not a matter of how they view their wives - but how they view themselves.

or how the think others view them..

DII:
I think I'd like to respectfully disagree. (Is that even possible? Hmmnn. In any case:)

Yes, everyone is beautiful to someone. At least in some ways even if not in lustful ways. Good middos. Upbeat character. Whatever.

This even extends to good looking. Hook nose is nice to someone who grew up in such as family himself. Fat is a relative term. Etc.

But I think it's safe to say that "good middos" does not equal a lustful desire as "attractive." And I think the discussion here has to do with women unattractive in the physical looks dept. Let's say, even, like a cow.

If you think such a thing could exist, I think the OP is asking about that....  Any thought on THAT little subset of the issue??  Thx.