Reb Guard - the scary thing is how many people actually think like that...

Reb Rage - that's awesome! It wouldn't surprise me if they actually had that sign!

I am not taking a blow at a Rabbonim it’s only a wake up call to them. There are big issues out there and they should prioritize.

As a side I hope that shtreimel was cover under the new wedding guidelines!!!!!

Obviously, if we feel that we have information that would help the rabbanim, we should share it. But when we don't understand their actions and decisions (and I use that term instead of saying that "their actions and decisions are wrong," because the latter term implies that I have a better understanding of the overall situation facing klal yisroel then the rabbis do), we should consider the possibility that maybe they. with their broader perspective and deeper understanding, see a solution in their actions, even if we don't.

For example (just a thought)...perhaps with their greater understanding of kochos hanefesh, they understand that if people would listen to them and follow the wedding guidelines, that would lessen our taivah for useless gashmiyus, which would effect ALL areas of physical desire...

Or maybe, they see people's lives destroyed by their need to go into debt to make fancy weddings that they can't afford, and say,"even though many people won't listen, we NEED to say something and try to fight this, because to stand by and watch people's lives destroyed by this wasteful practice would be cruel!"

Steve wrote on 21 Dec 2009 23:18:


Yes, you may be a nervous puppy, but you have what to be nervous about. The world doesn't consider us like normal people because we aren't.

There are two nekudos I see here, both just my opinion. The first, is the thing eye.nonymous mentioned that is being "dealt with" in his "incredibly insular" community: internet use. It often leads normal (but stupidly curious) folks to inappropriate stuff that ignites desires far more powerful than they are. Then they may make very stupid and damaging mistakes. Banning the internet (concerts, museums, libraries, and public bathrooms - ?) may help these types (though I doubt it).
But at least the issue is something they can understand! And that's great!

Then there is the other kind of unfortunate person (like me) who branched out into reliably habitual internet use, reliably habitual masturbation, fantasy, phone use, and other exciting, adventurous, and devastating discoveries and uses of schmutz....all habitual, who begins to watch himself helplessly and hopelessly progressing to worse stuff - and he/she's scared to death. He knows that he can't expect his kallah to figure him out or fix him. He knows in his heart that no normal, healthy marriage relationship cannot quiet the lion in his heart. The poor girl just cannot compete. He's over the barrel, and treading water. His success at not getting caught till now is the only thing assuring him that he'll be OK. So he/she schlepps on...

Normal people do not understand this fellow at all. (Check out the last few pages of the chapter on "step 2" in AA's 12&12 - and much of the beginning of AA - on the head-scratching frustration of 'normals' with the alcoholic.) And why should they? They don't need a solution, so they don't have it.

And the issue here, is not really internet use, any more. It's Lust. The desire for internet use fills some kind of need that "oh, why can't you just be normal!!!!!", doesn't. Take away the internet and if he has no outside help from a Power greater than himself, he'll find some other way to get it. Guaranteed.

True, GYE can teach the dabblers in schmutz how bad it can get, that it's serious, etc. and warn them. But it's manned (and womanned) by those who have discovered the hard way that they are in trouble if they don't come out somewhere and talk about it to people who are ill enough to understand them.
Just maybe, the 'normal' rabbonim who will be dealing with folks who already have a problem will use GYE to learn how to face up to this stuff and deal with it rather than be afraid of it and just ban it with everything else.

dov wrote on 23 Dec 2009 23:48:
It's true. One time I was all pumped because I was going to a place which I knew I wouldn't have internet access in. Pretty soon after I got there, the urges arrived. I had remembered that there was a certain shmutz store (or sChmutz acc to R' Dov) in the area, and pretty soon I found myself putting on a pullover cap and a big scarf to hide my beard.(in hindsight I probably looked rediculous) And before I knew it I was in a filthier situation then ever before (in all my years I had never actually been in one of these places). This was at 2:30am by the way. The worst part was, that when I got there I saw another guy in a beard on his way out. I came to my senses while I was driving back, and I dropped what I bought in a garbage on the way. It was spontaneous, because I had been clean for a while. But 20 minutes after I got home I was thinking maybe it wasn't such a good idea. Back into the car, driving over to the garbage, took it out, and the rest I'm still suffering and crying about inside.
Now someone tell me that's normal!!! That's demented!!! Going into a garbage??? That's something homeless people do!!
But I'm not normal when it comes to this specific area. And I think I'm in good company here. Really, anybody who is willing to look at something like that knowing the effect it is having on him by the second - is far from normal.
I think Dov is right. We can't demand that the entire jewish population adopt OUR mentalities and OUR priorities. They simply don't have the concerns, stuggles, and dangers we do. They need to focus on the things which are of greatest importance to THEM.

DOV YOU BLOW MY MIND WITH YOUR BRILLIANCE.

Guard, i think you should print out this post and use it in your presentation. It will show others WHY they cant understand us.

NEWS UPDATE!!!

I have had some success recently with discussing this topic with people without embarassing myself.

I was sitting in a shiur and a fellow next to me was using a laptop to take notes.  I noticed he was hooked up to the internet.  Aftwards I innocently asked him, "Hey, do you have a filter on that computer?"  A discussion followed, I explained the basics of computer filters and other options to make his computer safe (deactive pictures--you can right-click on a picture if you think it's necessary for the web site).  I also mentioned a great website that has lots of resources that I had found when looking for a filter.  And, I mentioned how I've heard how dangerous it is to use the internet without a filter.

NEWS REPORT2!!!

I had an awkward discussion with a friend recently.  He said, "what have you been doing lately?"  I didn't know exactly how to include him in, "I'm about to celebrate 90-days free from mas*** and looking at po**!!!"

Today, though, I discovered a way to enter the general topic.

I said, "I've been working on EMUNAH."  I mentioned some chassidic seforim I've been dabbling in, and some shiurim I heard recently.

THEN, I mentioned how much self-help is based on AA.  I wanted to read the source for myself.  I talked about how amazing it is that these non-Jews got themselves out of alcoholism by trusting in Hashem.  KAL V'CHOMER it should be able to help us.

Then, I talked about how EMUNAH relates to my computer work; and how I find the computer itself is addictive.  And how one of our rebei'im told us that if we need internet, we shouldn't have it without a filter.

Then I mentioned how I heard something from Rav T'wersky how computers are ripping apart families.  And, how it's the same as an addiction to alcohol.

I said, "I didn't understand how dangerous it was... but when I searched for information on filters I found this site... it had tons of stories of people whose lives were really messed up.  BUT, they're also recovering"

He didn't actually suspect anything on my part.  Also, he admitted to accidentally seeing some p** himself and how shocked he was at how much it gripped him.

It was something like that.. one thing led to another until basically all the main points were covered.  At the end he said he apprecited the conversation.

Wow...you rock, man! Spread the wealth!

I think its important to be able to talk about this with seemingly non-addicts. Someone may realize they have a problem and look into it cause of it. It is great that you werent so straight forward yet got the point across. This is the apporoach I plan on taking with my future wifr Beezras Hahsem.

-Yiddle

Hey, eyeball, I can do those kind of conversations too, but I better be sure it doesn't get back to my wife!  ;D :o ;D

GR8 job eye... I'm into that type of thing, slipping into conversations about it in a very masiach lfi tumo style...

habaletaher wrote on 25 Jan 2010 06:08:
Well thats funny. I always got the impression you were the type to blast it all over the airways! am i wrong reb haba?