2 Weeks. One day at a time.  YOU GOT THIS!

Hey guys. I fell twice. I didn't know how hard Shomer Negiah was going to be. We didn't touch, but being around her definitely wakes up a ton of urges. I'm also still having a lot of anxiety about marriage. I really want to hit two weeks so away we go...

Keep up the great work!
You were shomer negia (no simple feat at all)!! 

The only thing you need to think about right now is what boundaries can you put in place to keep you from slipping in the shomer negia area. 
In regards to the p&m issue, that you'll deal with when you are in a slightly better emotional place, (hopefully that will be by tomorrow)

I went out again last night. After the date we got really close to each other and it was so hard not to touch her. We decided that this can't happen again, so we came up with four reasons not to touch until the wedding
1. We want Hashem to be in our relationship. When done properly, it's holy and hopefully Hashem will bestow us with his Bracha. If we engage in touching when we are not allowed to it's animalistic and selfish.
2. We want it to be new and exciting by the wedding.
3. Touching and getting really close is Assur. Even though we are engaged we aren't Halachically any different.
4. We want to exercise our self-control muscles for off-weeks and learn how to be close without touching.

P.S. I'm two days clean Baruch Hashem.

OK, so here goes the most super-annoying-response of all time:

​May I nitpick and change the order to:

HALACHA GOES FIRST
1. Touching and getting really close is Assur. Even though we are engaged we aren't Halachically any different.

HASHKAFA / MENTAL HEALTH REASON
2. We want to exercise our self-control muscles for off-weeks and learn how to be close without touching.

RUCHNIYUS FRINGE BENEFIT
3. We want Hashem to be in our relationship. When done properly, it's holy and hopefully Hashem will bestow us with his Bracha. If we engage in touching when we are not allowed to it's animalistic and selfish.

RELATIONSHIP & GASHMIYUS FRINGE BENEFIT
4. We want it to be new and exciting by the wedding.

You can call me tonight to blast me for this most annoying post : )

Bein' arrogant in Grodno ~ IMG

לפענ"ד צ"ל 3 לפני 2. וק"ל.

R' Oved Shlit"a,

Great point - and well taken : )

Efshar could be that you are more of a nefesh hachaim (or Tanya?) guy - whereas I am from the mesilas yesharim school?

Either way, this would make for an unbelievable conversation over bourbon and cholent...

Lookin' forward to meetin' by Kidush @ the great shul of Grodno ~ IMG

In my unfortunate experience once a boy and girl have disclosed to each other that they find it difficult not to touch, it only makes it more of an option and possibility, and, if you allow yourselves the opportunity, an inevitability.

The only way to stop it is to stop talking about it and to absolutely not allow yourselves to be in a place where it's possible for it to happen, which means going BEYOND what hilchos yichud requires. No shmoozing in the car for long periods, even if you're parked on a street somewhere, etc.

It's tough, but if you're serious about not touching, it's the only way.

But if you keep telling each other how much you want to and how hard it is, and allowing yourselves to be somewhere where its possible, all the logic in the world wont stand up to desire. Ein apitropis laroyos, you can't plan for pure willpower to win out against lust, it's planning to fail.

Oved wrote on 28 Apr 2021 22:31:

Uhhh explain please?

The Rabbanim have instituted basic gedarim for chasanim & kallos; HY613 is doing a great job seeking the healthy and moderate approach within those parameters.

With all due respect R' CJ21, I think that your approach is a bit extreme...

אין לנו אלא מה שאסרו

IMG

EvedHashem1836 wrote on 29 Apr 2021 01:27:

nvm i got it

Ish MiGrodno wrote on 29 Apr 2021 01:28:

I respectfully disagree.
B"H in the Chassidishe world, the basic Gedorim is for no contact at all or very limited phone calls. I don't know the environment that HY613 is coming from, however I think even according to the guidelines of the Rabbanim you mentioned, they will agree that if there is an issue of negiah (or as it sounded like from his prior posts, they have already touched in the past but trying to stop. Correct me if I'm wrong) then more drastic gedarim need to be enforced. 
Best would be if HY613 can speak to a Rabbi or Mentor.

concernedjew21 wrote on 28 Apr 2021 23:33:

Brilliant advice. Added advantage for the chosson and kallah is that they will be able to enjoy the dating much more with the yishuv hada'as that they won't end up in a matzav of nisayon. Being at ease during the engagement period is very important.

"One should take a similar course with each of the other traits. A person who swayed in the direction of one of the extremes should move in the direction of the opposite extreme, and accustom himself to that for a long time, until he has returned to the proper path, which is the midpoint for each and every temperament."

​Rambam Deos chapter 2

The approach that the Rabbonim have instituted is meant to make sure that engaged couples never get to the precipice that HY613 is holding at in the first place. It assumes a clean slate, ie the chassan and kallah haven't discussed openly with each other that they have an immense urge to touch and are struggling with it.

That discussion in of itself obviously constitutes a major violation of the gedarim, and it is a game changer for the relationship. 

There isn't a chasan in the yeshiva world who'd have the guts to touch his kallah, without the support and "ok" from her that she's dying to touch as well and in fact struggling not to. 

Another reason it's such a dangerous situation, is that once its been discussed and out in the open and they've sat together an inch apart a few times and flirted with temptation, it's usually the GIRL that makes the first move, because they're dataan kaalos or whatever. And tell me which guy is resisting temptation when his kallah makes the first move and takes his hand.

I haven't been following this whole thread, but if this is an old relationship and they've touched before, then you can take everything I've said and rewrite it in bold times ten. 

I'm by no means an expert but I do have firsthand knowledge of about a handful of these situations that all played out in the exact same pattern, with the exact same progression and the exact same mistakes.

Respectfully