Sapy wrote on 08 Jun 2021 22:31:

Thanks!

I've actually been working on it for many years and made a lot of progress to a point that I even felt that it was behind me. I read all the book did a lot of the exercises...

it's not all about perfectionism, that's just one manifestation of low self esteem and the need to prove ones worthiness. What really needs to be worked through, I think, is self worth. I am not a perfectionist anymore, at least no where near what I was, but I still find myself trying to prove my worthiness. This has also gotten better but it's a work in progress. 

There also seem to be triggers that cause it to spike for no apparent reason. If I would know why I feel the way I feel, I may be able to change something but I don't.  

I was at a wedding last night, lots of stuff to look at, the cake, the miniatures, the bar, the choir, oh, and the women. 

I practiced. Closed my eyes, took some deep breaths and whispered gam zeh ya'avor. And eventually, they all did. I really wanted to make sure everything was okay with the kallah in case her dress wasn't fitting properly, or her hair was a little off, it's obviously very important for me to know. Is she wearing heals under the gown? Is she wearing a full veil or one of those see through ones? does she look like her mother? Sisters? Maybe friends? All very important stuff...

Closed my eyes, pretended that I was davening for the new chassan and kallah but really I was just whispering, "Hashem, please keep my eyes closed. Nothing will happen if I don't find out all of those important things." 

I really was curious though...

On this thread there is a lot of frustration as to how challenging this struggle can be. So i thought I would share the following:

Rav Shalom Shvadron says this nisayon is like soccer.Why doesn't the soccer player show up on the field an hour before the game and score all his points with no-one challenging him (being that the opposing team has not arrived yet)? Because the point of the game is to score the points when challenged.It would be great to wake up in the morning and spend our days with no triggers or nisyonos, but the point of "the game" is to score when challenged.....   Hope that helps ease the pain a bit......

Hashem Help Me wrote on 09 Jun 2021 11:20:

I was learning the Gemara in yoma daf 69b this week of how the anshei knesses hagdolah destroyed the yetzer harah for avodah zorah. The Gemara says that they said “the yetzer harah was created to give us schar. We don’t want the yetzer harah and we don’t want the schar”. They tried doing the same with the yetzer harah for women but the world wouldn’t have been able to continue without it as even the chickens had no interest in relations. So the yetzer harah was left. One of the things I take out of this Gemara is Hashem Help Mes point: the battle and struggle is so hard FOR OUR GOOD as the Gemara says when they destroyed the yetzer harah for avodah zarah. They couldn’t destroy the yetzer harah for women (as I know!) but now that it’s here it’s here to give us the battle of our lives so we can reap rewards beyond our imagination. But sometimes i feel like saying what the anshei knesses hagdolah said “we don’t want the yetzer harah and we don’t want the schar!”

Struggling again. Lots of emotional stuff, may be the chicken may be the egg but it definitely having an effect on my struggle. 

Went to a therapist, spoke to my Rosh Yeshiva. All good stuff but it's still not easy. They say it gets worse before it gets better, sure seems like it. 

At least I know that I am trying to get help.  

Keep strong! You're doing great 

This is what I'd say. Think about about everything else that you feel you're missing in you're life what you really want. What do you think about deep down alone. Replace you're lust with that. You can fight all you however there's no garentee you'll be successful (I may be wrong).it gotta be replaced. These things that you deep down really want should be what you should work on really strong to replace lust. Dov has an article about this somewhere on Gye.
but if you ask me it's more then fighting the excitement of lust gotta be replaced.
and putting yourself totally into learning Torah honestly as much as you can (for real) day in and day out you would be so happy and wouldn't be feeling any of this.
By the replacement of Torah learning.
This is what I think. And I hope this helps everyone!!!!!!
All the best!!!

Someone asked recently what "powerless" means. I replied in that thread but I would like to add something. 

In my most recent conversation with my Rosh Yeshiva, he told me the following (in R"Y language of course!).

You cannot honestly say admit powerlessness until you have exhausted all available options. In order to "admit powerlessness" you have to really feel it. The reason why this is important is that in order to work a program that is based on powerlessness, we must be 100% in. If we go in thinking "okay, let me try this, it can't hurt" it will not work for you. In order for it to work you have to really feel like your life is unmanageable and that this is the only way back to sanity.  

He said that he doesn't see therapy working for guys until they come to the realization that they are not managing. It doesn't help that he sees the problem, they need to see it in order for it to work.

If you tell a regular yeshiva guy to see a therapist because he misses shachris, he will think you are mad. "Let me learn some more mussar and it will straighten out." When it goes on for years, he will say that it's obvious that he isn't learning enough mussar. Only when he actually works on it and exhaust all of the other options and realizes that he has a real issue will he be willing to work with a therapist. 

Powerlessness is something that some people feel and some don't. I feel powerless in my emotional struggle a lot more than in my lust one. That's just me. I am trying to get help in both. I know that I cannot do it alone. Believe me, I've tried and have been failing miserably.

My nekudas habechira at this point (I think) is to get the help that I need, and to fight as I can.

Still miserable but a touch optimistic, at least someone is trying to pull me out of the mud.

Fell, no deep feelings to share, I kinda knew it was coming. I have a lot going on and I think I am doing my best. Something that I am working on with my therapist is to do things because I value them. Not because of what others will think or because I feel compelled to (for example, davening with a minyan) or because of any prior commitment but just because it is something that is part of my value system. I think that it is timely that I broke the "challenge" at this time to give me the ability to do this because it holds an important place in my value system. My first seder chavrusa also dropped me and this also helps because it was a lot of pressure for me and I wasn't doing so well. It gives me an opportunity to do the things that I value solely because I value them.

Today, I held back a few times by taking a deep breath and saying "hey, this doesn't fit in." It's the real reason why I am fighting.

See ya guys on the other side!

wilnevergiveup wrote on 28 Jun 2021 20:51:

Let this be a springboard to greater heights!
forgive me for asking but have you had a chance to speak with your rav? 
I know you said you wanted to..just wondering     being curious being nosy and want to know where your holding with that.

Zedj wrote on 29 Jun 2021 07:18:

Yes, I actually posted a little about it a couple posts back. He didn't want to hear much, he got a general picture and he told me I should see a professional. I think that he knows what's going on and knows that a professional is the best course for someone like me. He didn't want to hear all the details and I think he has good reasoning for it. He recognized that I have issues that are greater than just my masturbation one and that opening up to a professional was going to do greater good than opening up to him.  

Starting to be a perfectionist again. I had a good day yesterday, I said, well, I guess I can be "good" again, I felt so optimistic. This morning was slow so I said, "I guess I am a failure again." 

It's okay, I am allowed to make mistakes. I will get past them. Today is not lost. 

See ya!

wilnevergiveup wrote on 29 Jun 2021 10:01:

A line my therapist told me "as soon as you know your lost, your not lost anymore".
realizing that it's the perfectionist in you that is speaking, is a yeshua for itself!

Taking a moment to write down some of the things that make up my value system in the area of lust.

The GYE bare minimum:

• Porn
• Masturbation with finish.​

​My personal values:

• Not looking at any women, even if they are dressed (in underwear and alone).
• Not looking at any woman in order to derive pleasure (with a three second grace period, non accumulative)
• Fantasizing about being with other women who I don't know.
• Fantasizing about being with other women who I do know.
•  Looking for material to feed my lust, even if I don't find any.
• Masturbating, even if I don't finish.

These are things that I value in and of themselves, no streaks, no commitment, just because these are the things that I believe in.

I will try to post occasionally if I am clean by GYE standard, or by my standard. This is really just about clarity for me.

Today, clean by my standards.