cordnoy wrote on 21 Jan 2020 06:00:
Hakolhevel wrote on 21 Jan 2020 05:35:
cordnoy wrote on 10 Jan 2020 13:35:
sbj wrote on 10 Jan 2020 09:17:
DavidT wrote on 09 Jan 2020 14:57:
sbj wrote on 09 Jan 2020 03:39:
From my experience I can say it pays to disregard the notion that addiction is a sickness and we're therefor 'powerless' over our actions, and doomed for life with this 'disease'. Newer, science backed approaches which are in line with the Torah view are picking up steam here. Why not get acquainted with them? There are other very helpful resources available, you can PM me for details.
An approach of responsibility and openness to explore will imho get you much farther than staying within the limits of a negative, dis-empowering approach. Using logic and experiment, and depend on Heavenly assistance FOR THAT, may prove more fruitful than blindly following outdated - although widespread & still going strong - beliefs.
You bring out an interesting point but if I may I will rephrase it on a more realistic way.
The fact that addiction is a sickness has been studied and proven by the medical world and many torah authorities & scholars too. According to the torah way it's called a sickness of the soul "
Chole Hanefesh".
According to what I've seen published over the recent years with the great advancements in brain science, I've got a different picture. More and more experts came out devaluing the 'sickness' notion. I actually haven't seen any real 'studies' in favor of that. It was more a belief than anything else.
To me it seems that the 12 steps approach just managed to become mainstream thinking, maybe because its concepts were based on religious thinking popular at that time and/ or due to lack of other methods. It was probably the only (popular) answer then, and since the medical community hasn't come up with answers of their own, they just used this. I think the same can be said for Rabbis who went with it.
Now, obviously the steps have positive, helpful aspects, but the 'sickness' belief weighs it down, and can counter the effects of its helpful parts.
More recently new holistic, empowering approaches emerged; were tested & proven and subsequently gained great support. To my knowledge, there are no indications in today's science labs pointing in favor of the steps. Maybe it's time to let go of this limiting belief and give plain simple, unbiased common sense a try.
Actually, SA is built on common sense. I have been to many meetings and have spoken to many fellows in and out of the groups. I haven't seen one who was "weighed down" by the powerlessness concept. Those who didn't understand (myself) or who disagreed (myself, many times) simply moved on to the bulk of the project, and that is workin' on oneself to calm his emotions and fixin' his bad attributes. Pure common sense. It was always the fellows outside of those closed doors who harped on the religion aspect of its origin or its introduction.
I am not a card carryin' member of SA and I know plenty of it's shortcomings and in one locality there are concerns that need to be addressed, I think.
Regardless, long live the power of the keyboard.
Cords
You write that you are not a card carrying member of SA and you know its shortcomings, but many of your opinions seem to align with SA way of thinking (as I understand it) plus you link on the bottom to the white book and the big book.
Can you share your opinions what you do think of the program?
Thanks
Thanks.
I think I have written many times on this, but they are probably scattered all over the place. I went for a year. I read the books many times and worked the steps. I conducted phone calls for a couple years as well.
Would it be possible for you to ask specific questions?
- I think sa doesa lot of good.
- I think it's good for non addicts as well.
- It could serve as a cult sometimes, and that has its drawbacks.
- Sobriety is addictive as well.
- The steps really help people change, but like all things in life, you gotta keep workin' it.
- If your yahadus decreases while you're workin' the program, take a step back and analyze your life.
- I'm skeptical about all new things - pa, smart, etc., but they do seem to be doin' good things.
- The Christian stuff people say about sa is imho gibberish, but that doesn't mean one needs to enter a church.
- Good thin' I asked you for specifics.
- All of the above are just my opinions; they are not facts, nor are they taken from elsewhere, nor should they be taken as any sort of holy writ. I was an addict and I still am. My mind is clouded.
Thanks cords.
What I really wanted to hear was that you have maintained sobriety with SA way if thinking it living, but not necessarily going to meetings every week. Obviously your are in touch with people who know your name... Yet you don't go to meeting's.
I did not like the SA bashing going on here, while I have yet to join a sa meeting, I'm currently reading the white book, and have listened to alot of talks on Sa/as. I feel like what i need to do now is work the steps and get a sponsor, maybe also join deperados?
I just relate to do much of what SA and AA teaches.
Regarding smart. In general my understanding is that any group therapy is going to be extremely powerful. Regardless, I think alot of people have to realize that SA isn't for everyone, if you don't are with their definition of powerless, well maybe you are indeed not( yet ) powerless.
In the white book it talks about how it starts if as pleasure, at a certain point it turns into pain, and some people find help while they are still in transition. Which they might find smart the better fit at that time.
I just don't like people saying, i"time to rethink a system that has been working great, but studies backed by "science" show it's not so effective."
If something works for YOU good. If it doesn't, find something else. Or as others here stated. Make a cocktail.
Warning: Spoiler!
