The point I was trying to make is that it's HIGHLY likely that kids will find out on their own, even if they grow up in a complete bubble. And if, when they ask you about it, you make something up, I think you risk great damage (remember that they may ask you AFTER they already know some or all of what there is to know). I also think that the MORE you shelter them and ignore these issues, pretending they don't even EXIST, the LESS LIKELY it is that your child will come to you with questions in this area, because in your child's eyes this is not something to be talked about at all. So the child will explore on his own, and will not consult a parent or Rebbi no matter what he sees or what kind of behaviors he falls into. You're also assuming that you can just explain to a kid that you "lied" because you thought it was best for him, and that he will accept that unconditionally. Even if the kid pretends to accept that answer, what is actually going through his head is "I wonder how many other things my parents told me were actually lies they made up 'for my own good'" (god, judaism, etc). You're probably better off with a compromise. If you're not going to make it better by disclosing the information on your own, DON'T make it worse by lying when one of your kids asks you about this. Good luck guard! I hope whatever method you choose to use works, and that all your children follow in your footsteps.

I'm with ano and IT on this one.
Guard--NO MATTER HOW SHELTERED your kids are, they can always find out without you telling them. I grew up in an EXTREMELY sheltered environment. You won't even believe how much. And I still found out at an extremely young age. I was very curious, and actually just figured it out on my own, later on I checked it up in an encyclopedia/dictionary to make sure.
Then I had to know exactly how..So I searched and searched and found my first p*rnographic clips on my brothers computer. The rest ,as they say, is history 
My curiosity cuda maybe been stemmed had I been told about it normally...Or at least if people weren't soo overprotective about this topic. (which of course made me wonder, why??)

My opinion hasnt been requested (then again, when is it?) but I am with Ano and IT25.

Kids seem to have an amazing ability to discover exactly what we try to hide from them. And once they find it, the chances of them sharing their new found inof with us is slim. They know these topic are not openly discussed. Even the most sheltered environments have it. They go to mikvah, hear about toaiva parades etc, and discuss these things amogst themselves. And come out with the most messed up,  confused information and messages possible.

I am almost certain some of my sons are suffering from misinformation, but as the female here, can not easily discuss this with them without them being too embarrassed. My husband avoids the issue totally (boy what he would do if he found out what GYE really is.... :-\!) I would not be at all surprised if some of my sons are addicted already or on the way :-\

I hold by talking and honesty.


by the way Guard, I had a friend who was told the kissing = babies line. A relative once kissed her and she was seriously traumatized for over a year worrying she was pregnant. She had no idea that its not a case of kissing, had no idea how long it would be till 'the preganancy' would show. It destroyed her and changed her personality permanently.

RAAAAAAAAAAR  > :o :-[ :-\ :-X :'(


Weeeell..... How about explaining it needs to be a french kiss to work?  :-\  :-X  :-[  (I hope relatives would not do [b]that[/b])....

Ok, so it's 4 against 2

Me & Yakov-Shwartz against Imtrying, Ano, Trying & 7up...

I'm gonna have to call Rabbi Twerski down here to give us his "psak".

TrYiNg wrote on 11 Dec 2009 10:12:
Hey trying i can relate to every word in your post. Wow rifght out of my mouth. AnGuard I grew up with out a computer in my house and till today my father doesnt allow a computer in his house!!!!

Was thinking the same thing when I read your posts...


Here I was laughing out loud. I did the same thing...every time we had a halacha test Id stay up till 5  :D

OK, I am VERY VERY embarrassed to say this, but I did it a couple times with an english kitzur shulchan aruch on my lap (using the info in there). I was 13 at the time, and I remember this very well. I also remember when I was in 11th grade or so, I checked the english kitzur in my high school (it was the exact same "model" as the one I had at home that I had "used") to see if one part of it was more used than another. Yup, you guessed it. That section of my school's english kitzur was black around the edges, and the rest of it was white as snow. Somehow the taboo just has an incredibly magnetic pull, the curiosity of which hardly anyone can resist.

Ano, what are you doing UP at this time of the morning?? 

So, let's say you guys are right... What age???

Ano Nymous wrote on 11 Dec 2009 11:17:

And what about the biology books. Either theyre black around the pages or they are ripped out which only made me more curiious.
And Guard theres no right time . As responsible parents we have an obligation to know each one our children and based upon that make these life changing decisions.

What am I doing up? I'm reading the forums, of course (and other forums). What age? What I tried to explain in my post is that there is no cookie-cutter answer, no age when you just spill it all, just like you wouldn't suggest that every girl get married at 19 and every guy get married at 22.5 (actually many people unfortunately do this, but that's not a conversation for now). It's just a really tough call, and as the dad here, you should be telling me and not vice-versa.  ;D

Guard, I assume your asking at what age we started having an interest and actively pursuing these things?
Well, I knew everything at around 9-10 yrs old though I'm assuming most kids that age don't really care..

I didn't get a chance to read everyone's responses yet. I hope to do so after shabbos.  But this much I can tell you that just because a child is informed about the biology of having children will NOT prevent him from getting into porn.  My father caught me with porn a bunch of times between 6th and 8th grade.  Each time he tried explaining to me what it is really about.  I did not care much.  The more he told me the more I resisted and the more I needed it.  My sick brain saw sex/porn as pleasure thing and that's it. I knew that I enjoyed it, and my body craved it.  (blame it on the dopamine)  And so during those years I built up a nice collection of mags and vids, and snuck them away in my room.  
Oh and by the way, just because someone becomes an addict does not mean he is not a "masmid in kollel".  I also became a "masmid in kollel", just that no one knew what I I did in my "spare" time at nights.

Yes, the $64,000 question.

Not everyone finds out. I've consulted with various memuhim both secular and frum, and masgichim as well. I have heard of cases of bachurim saying to chasan teachers - "this is just not for me!" or kallahs running in fright from a similar discussion - clearly, some people make it to the chuppah knowing absolutely nothing (and often afterwards, but that's another schmooze and problem ).

I honestly don't know the answer, which way do you gamble - my gut is that we teach boys gemaras that oepny speak about these things, I feel like if we can santify it, own before the street owns it, and work with an approach - not one of hiding, but of "we'll tell you more when you need to know -" then this can be positive.

Especially to a teenage boy - to teach that he seeks and companionship which will come in the right time when he's ready, and the girl next door is an illusion - I think it would be a good idea. We take it first.

But I'm takeh mesupak...

ykv,
It's not the biology that the kids need to know. It's the general perspective on sexuality which will prevent children from feeling uncomfortable about themselves and becoming introverted. Obviously talking to a kid after he's hooked on porn isn't going to do any good, in the same way my father trying to give me "the speech" three years too late didn't do any good, and only left me feeling angry and resentful towards him.

When I got hooked at age 12, it had nothing to do with sex. I didn't even make the association between masturbation and women until much much later. What mattered was that since I didn't KNOW what I was doing, I was able to quickly slide into a free fall with nothing there to catch me.