They agreed to refund my entire purchase price (which isn't really such a big deal, since I could've gotten the money back by calling my credit card company and explaining what had happened -they didn't send me what I'd paid for!). However, they refused to give me anything else, so, after having spent $150, I wasn't overly thrilled.

We live, we learn, we smile, we move on. And we always, ALWAYS appreciate other people caring enough to offer their insight. Thank you!

In other news...I think i may be doing something wrong. I've found that I have trouble keeping my eyes completely off women in the street, even going for second (and sometimes third) glances. I think i need to follow Dov's advice and start davening for them.

silentbattle wrote on 23 May 2010 23:57:


SB, I hate to say this, but you're sounding suspiciously like someone who's a fixin' to "fall." Don't do it. Daven for them if you must, but daven for yourself as well. You're better than that.

Man, oh man, ain't it rough when the weather gets hot and the clothes get more abbreviated. Be viligant and you'll be fine. Totally.

OK, Briut,  I've know you long enough to respect your opinion - why do you think that?

As an aside, i wonder if I'm taking the concept too far. I find myself wishing almost every girl i pass a good day, and success...so is this making me focus on them more? Or does it mean that on some level, my mind is really tracking each and every one of thes women all along, and it's only now that I'm realizing it?

silentbattle wrote on 24 May 2010 22:12:


What I thought I saw in your post is probably nothing. Sorry if I sounded too alarmist. Ouch. But having started down this path, I'll keep going with sharing stuff that might be my own projections alone. Anyhow...

When I start to give the 'second glance,' as you phrased it, it means the woman on the street is turning from background noise into an item of interest. (Don't we say the same about po*n images, too - one glance ok, two a no-no?) And if you give a THIRD glance, you're possibly on the road to start undressing them in your mind or something. And, if you're willing to own up to these glances in a post, it means some of your blushing shame over it has already dissipated. Which means, ouch.

When I think about "daven for her," I don't really have such noble thoughts in my tefilos, I should confess. I would daven that she learn there's no need to dress like a (tramp) to get attention; that she know she's loved without parading her ass(ets) around; that she learn to grow and achieve and become a productive member of our society so that we'll all benefit. But to just send loving prayers her way, just because, chinam, well I'm not there right now.

That's probably what Dov and Bard and all mean when they say daven for her (she's a problem but not your problem), but it gets me through the day.

On a lighter note of this, the line I use with my kids as we pass such women is: "the poor dear, she must be needing to save up before she can afford the rest of that skirt; let's wish her luck." And then we all laugh at what we know is unlikely to be what's going on with her.

Anyhow, I was just reacting to the idea that you're moving from one glance, to two, to three, to confessing it, to wondering how to start a different approach. Seems to me the next step would be a big step downhill.

But then again, I'm just reading flat words on a screen. What's going on in your heart is likely to be far more refined and recovery-friendly.

Hm...I don't think so...Maybe I'm reading myself wrong, but for me, writing it in a post is a way of expressing my growing concern with an issue, and a decision to deal with it. It's a sign of growing awareness and shame, not lessening.

When it comes to davening for a woman, sometimes it'll be something along the lines of what you describe - hoping that she comes to appreciate herself on a deeper level. Sometimes it's just wishing her success overall. And it's selfish - because i think the idea is that I'm focusing on giving, instead of lusting, and that's kinda like changing the channel.

As far as second and third glances...I'm usually able to look away after seeing her. But sometimes, I have trouble with it. And it's usually not a full-fledged fantasy, but even the beginning, the very first "what if" - I don't want it! So I look away, I think about something else...but I wanted to try something new.

Sounds fine, SB. As long as you're aware of when the pull toward a second or third look comes, you're certainly equipped with the skills to keep it in check. But "ever-vigilent" might be a good buzzword in any case, as the weather gets hotter and the women's fashions follow suit .

Good night, SB. Gotta catch some zzzz's.

Hey Silent,
I also just recently began this thing with davening for them as they pass by. I think it worked pretty good. Instead of getting incvolved with this person by just chekin em out we are actually fulfilling our "Mashpia" mentality by davening for them. Our sickness than takes on a whole new meaning by being channeled into something posititve. It's an interesting idea but it does work. If you are going for seconds and thirds than you should definitely try it out.
Love ya man,
Zalmandovid

Thanks, Briut - ever-vigilant sounds like a good idea  :D

Reb ZD - I guess what I'm worried about is finding that this makes me dwell on them more, and even if it isn't in a lust way, is that necessarily a good thing?

I could really learn a lot from more discussion on 'davening for pritzus women.' (In an earlier post, I left an important word - 'not' - out of my post. Freudian slip, perhaps?)

Anyhow, how do we daven for them without obsessing over them even more, as you just said SB? I'd like to know. For me, it's mostly just --

"RBS'O, oy, how your creation has messed up. Look at her, thinking it's normal to dress/act/think that way. Look at the cable TV, putting such thoughts into her head. Look at her 'boyfriend,' conditioning his attention on her degradation. PLEASE, don't make us Yidden tackle a planet in such a condition. Help them gain some self-esteem and some knowledge of You. And help me stay out of their trap."

But Bards and Dov and others seem to say, "Hashem, let her be happy; let her be healthy; let her get that new job she wants, dress she wants, money she wants, etc."

What other options for tefilos exist? Which one is "right?" Is there a "wrong?"

And SB, since this is YOUR thread, what kind of tefilo would YOU be thinking about (assuming you control yourself from a third glance at their face or even their ass(ets)).

And SB, since this is YOUR thread, what kind of tefilo would YOU be thinking about (assuming you control yourself from a third glance at their face or even their ass(ets)).

I was always told
-  if you want a  woman for her money you might lose interest
I assume this applies to her other ass(ets too.


additionally - take an interest in her ass(ets and you lose out the opportunity to discover all her other Treaures!




Dov in Srael

DII - we're talking about women we pass in the street - I have absolutely NO interest in learning more about her or discovering her other treasures.  ;D

Depends...if she's got a baby, I hope that the kid grows up healthy, and that she's happy with him...I pray she finds true love, I pray she has a great day...

Mom had a good suggestion - possibly saying more of a blanket tefilah for all the women, without focusing on a particular one.

I'd really like to hear Dov's and Bards' input on this, since he's been doing this for a while.

ok - I think i get it...

I used to think the same way... wishing every young lady I met a good day, a bracha, that she shoudl grow to be a righteous woman of Israel and light candles...

but it does not work...

so instead I used to look for KEDUSHA on the street...

HEY There goes a holy man, I am sure he learns all day...WOW ! I wonder how many daf he learns.

WOW - look at that humble man, his shies are so worn out... I am sure he learns all day and does not even have a moment to go buy shoes.

Hello - holy young lady. have a good shabbas - enjoy lighting your candles.

WOW - another holy Tzaddik - I did not realize there were soooo many in such a close area to where I live!


you can win any game you play - as long as YOU are the one making the rules.
If the YH what to play games so badly - agree, as long as you can make the rules.


DII

I hear that...it's a bit more difficult on the NY subway..."hey, look at that guy - he looks like a homeless crack addict, but I'll bet...um...yeah! He's not talking to himself, he's chazaring bava kamma!"

But still, do-able, I think.

Thanks!

silentbattle wrote on 25 May 2010 15:28:

I'm laughing out loud on that one, SB.

Even so, I've been able to look at certain [lunatics] in our community and say, "wow, look how much more functional they are than if they didn't a community like this. Shkoiach to them for their hard work, and to the community for supporting all the organizations that keep them living independently. I'll daven for their continued growth."

It's made my experiences with them so much more pleasant, now that I think about it. Hmmnn. More to think about.