habib613 wrote on 02 Dec 2009 01:14:


Man, you "in-towners"......
There's a world outside of NY and it's not at all the way you guys think it is. I'm about as "out of town" as you can get, and I've been around "in towners" for quite a while now. They're wrong on just about everything concerning "out of town".

Case in point: I went to a coed high school. At least two girls in my really small class flat out refused to read some of the crap that was assigned for English class on religious grounds (I didn't read it because, like I said, it was crap and I had better things to do with my time, like physics homework). Their behavior suspiciously resembles that of those "good in-towners" (yes, there are "frum" girls in coed schools).

So it's not as black and white and oversimplified as you guys make it out to be. Here's another shocker: while I did go to coed schools my whole life, I've also been shomer negiah my whole life. Am I exceptional? Maybe. But it isn't so uncommon. "In towners" would tell me that's some kind of miracle. If that's what someone thinks about my not so amazing feat, then they clearly have some problems with self control.

Now I understand that "town" is a different universe, but the least "in-towners" could do would be to learn some geography and understand that there is an existence--a very fine one, indeed--out of town. I'm from a major city (big enough to have professional sports teams) and I can't tell you how many times "in towners" don't even know what state I'm from. I even get this from guys who follow professional sports.

All I'm saying is to open up your minds a bit.


PS: Was this a rant? Yes. But it wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular. I'm just sick of encountering the same old, WRONG, preconceived notions about "out of town" by a bunch of "in towners" who have never even left their smelly borough.

Rant over.

You remind me of the time someone complained to me about how people from NY think that everything centers around there. I asked him where he was from, and he said he was from Texas. I nodded sagely, "ah, the desert part of NY."

Seriously, though - maybe I misunderstood, but what Habib was saying was that people from an out of town community (maybe even girls more than guys) are likely to have classmates and friends from a broader range of backgrounds, as opposed to people from brooklyn, who live in a more homogeneous community.

ok ok...
i don't live in town...
i might live out of town...
i have friends from michigan, illonois, and hawaii (jk)
also, my social circles are more BY, and i don't know, or claim to know, anything about co-ed high schools. just co-ed elementary schools- and i remember what that was like.

and i think silentbattle got what i meant...

First of all - of course it's a miracle! Any time we beat the yetzer hora, we only do it with hashem's help! the gemara says it - without hashem's help, we couldn't compete.

I also wanted to ask, because I'd like to hear your perspective - being shomer negiah in a coed school? Maybe I'm generalizing, but it seems to me that communities with a coed school generally have a more relaxed perspective towards guys and girls being friends, hanging out, etc., although there are obviously differing levels within that community.

Within such a framework, I consider it quite remarkable that you were able to stay shomer negiah - we know that the gemara says that "ain apotropos l'arayos" - no one is trustworthy when it comes to matters of lust.

silentbattle wrote on 02 Dec 2009 02:41:

They do.

[/quote]
I asked him where he was from, and he said he was from Texas. I nodded sagely, "ah, the desert part of NY."[/quote]
Again, some geography. If you ever look at a map you would see that the entire eastern border of Texas is smack on the ocean. That means no desert, at least in the east.

[/quote]people from an out of town community (maybe even girls more than guys) are likely to have classmates and friends from a broader range of backgrounds, as opposed to people from brooklyn, who live in a more homogeneous community.
[/quote]
OK, that much I will agree with. Guess I misunderstood a bit. But I still stand by my rant.

Rage ATM wrote on 02 Dec 2009 02:43:


Except for L.A., the Capital of Fake.
No offense to you LA people. There are exceptions to every stereotype 

silentbattle wrote on 02 Dec 2009 02:55:

About the schools being more lax: it's entirely possible, and probably the norm for communities with coed schools. But consider a small town with 30 families spanning the whole spectrum of obserevance, and they need a school. Obviously, there wouldn't be enough resources to build two schools, much less one for each 'denomination", so a coed school is a matter of necessity there. It's more likely that this would be the case pre- high school because you can just send kids away once they get to high school, but you get the point.

I can tell you right now that I probably will NOT send my kids to a coed school, after I went through it. No way. Being a teenager is hard enough.
By the way, kids are better students when they are in single sex institutions.

About me:
I don't think it's so miraculous. I just looked around at all the empty relationships and realized that 99.9% of them were dead ends and that they always ended with a tremendous amount of pain. Why get involved? Also, I guess you could say I was one of the more "religious" kids in my school, plus I was a very serious student, so I didn't really have much in common with most of the kids there. The party types were much more likely to have girlfriends/boyfriends than the serious students. I guess we had a bit more foresight. Another thing is that my school was really small, so there wasn't a whole lot of selection. I was "too religious" for most and not religious enough for others who would barely say hello to me lest they look a guy in the eyes. Being in a small school meant that getting involved in a relationship would mean that everyone and their uncle knew about it, plus the awkward factor would be increased a billion-fold once you would inevitably break up. Finally, and probably most importantly, is the fact that I come from a messed up home so I think I'm much more sensitive to these kinds of issues than most people are. I didn't want to get involved unless I knew that it would be  lasting and everything that a relationship should be, and I knew that I wasn't ready for that yet. I grew up in a house of pain and I didn't want to perpetuate it by running to a supposed refuge called a girlfriend that would really turn out to be a source of more suffering once it was over. Girls from abusive/generally messed up homes tend to seek refuge in relationships more than guys do, but it's a common reaction. It just so happens that it's usually the wrong one (many girls in porn are from abusive/broken homes).
Another reason is that I know how strong my libido is (hey, I wound up on this here forum, didn't I?). I was afraid of where things would go even if I got involved in a "shomer" relationship. Even if nothing happened, I wouldn't have been able to focus on anything. Ever. Not having sexual contact was a red line I promised myself I would not cross. By that I mean anything beyond just hugging (OK, I was hugged only a few times in all of high school by a few girls--yes, they did it to me, not me to them--but most understood and respected the fact that I didn't want to be touched).

The red line was partly religious (also my parents would have killed me and they definitely would have objected to a "shomer" relationship too), and partly because I was a super self conscious goody two shoes and I didn't want people knowing I was in a relationship (now I don't really care what anyone thinks about me).

But, I'm also a man who values empirical evidence. It just so happens that the data show that those who engage in premarital sex tend to have much higher divorce rates than those who don't. I actually researched this stuff. I don't know if it's simply correlation or if it is a causative relationship, but I didn't want to become part of that statistic. Remember, I want to break the pattern that I was born into. The deck is already stacked against me, so why stack it higher?

So maybe I am an anomaly. I've always been a bit more mature than my peers, and I've always been hesitant to just jump into things before I know anything about them.

I guess if you want a more "standard" picture, ask some kid from NY who went to a large "Modern Orthodox" coed institution like SAR or HAFTR (where I'm sure they don't teach geography very well).


Hope that was enlightening. 

Wow dude, you sound just like me. You even wrote that the way I would have. The only difference between us is that I didn't go through a co-ed school. However, many guys in my school were heavily involved with girls from our school's girls division. When I thought about why I didn't do it myself (obviously hormones said to do it, and it was readily available), I came up with the same reasons you did. I'm so happy I didn't play the girlfriend/boyfriend high school puppy love game. Everyone involved in that game loses.

To both Batman and Ano nymous, I stand by my original statement of being impressed - sorry

Reb Bruce, I agree with your logic pretty much completely, but...

Intellectual commitment is one thing, but when it comes to matters of lust, it's very difficult for that intellectual knowledge to carry us through - and that's so even when it's paired with an awareness of the pain it will eventually cause. Um, as we see from that fact that we're all here.

The fact that you guys managed means that you ARE quite incredible, and you definitely owe some extra kavana the next time you say modim, too.

And...geography was never my strong point. I think it wouldn't have been my strong point no matter where I grow up - most of my goegraphical knowledge is from the Risk board, so as far as I'm concerned, there are 3 basic parts to America - Eastern United States, Western United States, and Central United States.

As far as deserts in Texas go, honestly, if there are none, that would make my line even better - my goal was to say the most NY-centric line possible  :D

And as far as NYers thinking that everything centers around them...well, look at it this way - NY certainly has the largest concentration of jews and jewish institutions/services/etc in the US, for all the advantages and disadvantages that implies. In that situation, it's easier to just be happy where you are, and not really look for things elsewhere.

I'm not justifying it, just explaining why I think it happens.

Oh, and to Rage - Learn to swim, see you down in Arizona Bay...

hey, silent!
i just want to wish you much hatzlacha in all the sticky dating!

my fav. song is v'hoo kaili... biyado af-kid ru/chi...Hashem li v'lo iirah from boruch levine
it's the theme of dating and of life.

Thanks...As of now, I'm still waiting a bit before starting to date again...and I'm in touch with my rebbe about what to do. What makes it a bit more complex is that I'm going to a therapist for this right now, hopefully more of a short-term thing to help get over this and move on. I need to get in touch with my old therapist who I saw for more general issues, because he knows me a lot better.

To be honest, I don't listen to much mainstream jewish music. Except for the old Journeys, and even that's not really "mainstream." Interestingly, I used the line "hashem li v'lo iirah" in one of my own songs (hi anyone who's heard me play my songs and knows who I am (waves hello)). I first read the translation to adon olam a few years ago, and i was struck by how powerful it is...

this song's a winner. the tune resounds with the feelings of the words.
It's "let go and let G-d" in it's greatest music
enjoy!

Fine, since you insist, I'll make it a point to go check it out.

silentbattle wrote on 02 Dec 2009 14:00:


Except that you're living in NY. If you're happy, it's cause you don't know any better.



Rage: You ever see that movie Escape from L.A.? I saw it on TV once. It's horrible, but the premise is that California has fallen into the Pacific and is now a lawless wasteland,  a giant, island-prison of sorts. It's really bad but the premise was cool.