don't think that was me... maybe trYiNg?
yeah, we're all trying to fill the hole inside... but GYE fills the loneliness very nicely
and you are definitely doing the right thing by stopping. no question about it.

GYE definitely helps - I'm starting to spend some more time on it.

Ah - that was Trying - I thought of you because you had written the next post, which I also enjoyed (college classes for men).

I don't have any doubts. And I don't plan on giving up. It's just really...really hard. Especially since there's the physical lust aspect, together with the emotional aspect.

It helps, though, that my rebbe knows. It's funny. I didn't have the strength to tell him, and I didn't even have the strength to daven for him to find out - because of how embarrassing it would be. I can actually remember thinking that I should daven for him to find out, but I couldn't.  But the second he confronted me, I think that my horror/shame paled in comparison to my relief.

really really hard is an understatement :D

it's great that your rebbe knows. i'm sure it helps. never really got rebbe-talmid relationships, so i'm not sure how it helps exactly, but so i've been told...
g'luck silent!

I'd try to get clear what exactly is required to be told. For men, these things are more disconnected, and being clean for a while may relieve you of the obligation to tell. Ask a Rav anonymously - clean time makes a huge difference; I had a friend who was totally irreligious for a while and did everything known to man and then put himself together and after about a year and a half got engaged. He was told just to tell her that he bummed out for a year, and if she wants to know more he would tell her. She said "is it over?" "yes" "then I don't want to know."

And that was that. Telling is not always the answer. Certainly, an active/recent addiction is  different ballgame. I recently had a friend who ended an engagement because he found out his kallah was clinically anorexic. Again, it wasn't the issue itself, but the lies. So you really need to ask a shaala so you can back yourself up later based on your exact situation.

thanks, kanesher.
but the guy who bummed out. she knew what he was doing. almost all my friends would assume that the guy they're dating never purposely looks at girls. they're all really naive like that.
but yeah, for SURE ask a rav how much to tell/not tell.

Kanesher - I think your friend's Kallah is smart...I have a friend who was engaged, and his Kallah, coming from a more modern orthodox background, had been involved with guys, on at least some physical level. He knew the basics, and that was enough - he wanted to move on, didn't want to constantly think about it.

But the girl kept mentioning things, including alluding to specific guys that she'd been with who might actually be by the engagement party, wedding, etc (due to family friendships). He tried to explain to her that he really didn't want to have specific images in his mind.

They're no longer engaged (though that's not the only reason, I think).

The less specifics one knows, the better, I think - but obviously, the girl has to be  confident that things are over. How to balance that...

habib613 wrote on 01 Dec 2009 00:41:


Are you implying that "out of towners" grow up "in the shmutz" by default since they are "out of town"?  "In town" is quite filthy too, you know.

I have actually discussed this sort of thing with some of my friends and some of them are OK with being with a girl who had done things with guys before or who were in to P and M. I have a major problem with it, depending on what actually went on (no, that was not a hypocritical statement--I can explain if you want). But my point is that there are plenty of guys out there who are understanding of it that kind of thing.

Since you feel so strongly about this, Rage, what did you tell your date/Kallah when you going out/engaged?  I'll bet you didn't breathe a word about it.

Fine.  But, by your logic, I think it's wrong to keep it a secret after marriage as well.  If someone had a serious illness, would he keep it from his wife?

The reason is a different one, but the need to disclose is still there.  Otherwise, everything a person does to recover has to be kept secret from his wife.

I don't think it's different before or after marriage.
If it's in the past and you feel you'e truly moved on and recovered.
It's not relevent to tell.
What good willl come out of it?
Who said you need to give full disclosure?
Do you also say you used to have a problem getting up for shachris?
In 3rd grade you cheated on a test?

However, if you still are sturrgling (where is he) I don't believe it would be right to go into a marriage with that kind of baggage (Then again I don't know who would marry you if you disclosed that you are currently sturrgling and havent gotton over it yet). And yes it should be disclosed after marriage too, if you are still sturrgling, and yes that makes me a hypocrite too.

Rage ATM wrote on 01 Dec 2009 14:54:


And I ain't got no right...

Do as I say not as I do because
The ****'s so deep you can't run away

Ring a bell Rage?

I can tell Rage. That's why I did it :D
You're much more of a music junkie (addict??) than I am though.

BruceWayne wrote on 01 Dec 2009 14:39:

i'm sure it is. i'm sorry. i didn't mean it like that.
all my friends are good girls, so i think what i really meant was that the good girls out of town just got more exposure...
even if the good girls in town had friends who were more involved with boys, there is just a much bigger division between the "good" girls and the "other" girls. an out-of-town BY would have lots of different girls, and everyone is pretty much friends.
does that make more sense?

let me define good- would never in their life read/look at anything inappropriate.
like a book we had to read for school? a friend of mine told me she opened up to a random page and read three words and then threw the book on the ground and was absolutely horrified that anything like that had ever been put into print. when i read the book i got a bit nauseated twice, but nothing major.

but the ones from out-of-town are a bit more accepting and acknowledge that stuff happens