cordnoy wrote on 04 Jan 2017 00:22:

Cordnoy, based on what was written in the last post, how would non-addicts go about doing step one?

I started writing and then I realized that Cordnoy was the one who was asked.

Shlomo24 wrote on 05 Jan 2017 16:54:

It's a free world. Hopefully he'll answer too (he's actually off-line now, a rare occurrence!), but lets hear your take on it.

I've heard people say "powerless over sin" but I don't know if that resonates. The real crux of the program is step 4 and onwards though. That anyone can do. But there needs to be a solid step 2 and 3 for that. I think 2 and 3 can be done without 1 for "normal" people.

Perhaps one can consider themselves unmanageable/powerless over their resentments, fears, and ego, and work from there.

stillgoing wrote on 05 Jan 2017 15:53:

They wouldn't.

Why force a square peg into a round hole?

Shlomo24 wrote on 05 Jan 2017 17:54:

I agree. Anyone can do 3-11 and benefit from it. These's nothing new there, it's very similar to what you'll find in mussar seforim already.

1 and 2 can't be done by non-addicts. They're not powerless and not insane (btw insane means anything less than 100% sane, it doesn't mean completely whacko).

But will they really do 4-11 properly if they don't have to? Will they be thorough? Will they admit their defects to another person? Why would they if they don't need to? Why not skip over the uncomfortable ones?

It's like the difference between studying something that you feel like learning more about, compared to studying for an important exam. I think a person is unlikely to do 3-11 completely unless they fully get step 1. 

And if they can't do it completely and thoroughly, can they not still benefit from doing those steps on whatever level they are able to? 

Gevura Shebyesod wrote on 05 Jan 2017 18:57:

Sure can.

"I agree. Anyone can do 3-11 and benefit from it."

cordnoy wrote on 04 Jan 2017 00:22:


So, it seems to me to summarize exactly as cordnoy wrote.
Anyone can do it, anyone can gain, but without step one, it's gonna be hard to hold on to it.

Watson wrote on 05 Jan 2017 18:35:

There are many 12-step program that aren't about addiction. Non-addicts can and will work the 12 steps of they want to and are committed to it.

Shlomo24 wrote on 05 Jan 2017 23:47:

Such as?

CODA

Is that not addiction? Just a more esoteric kind....
Thought I've never quite understood co-dependency. 

Can't non-addicts just admit powerlessness over life in general? Really we can't control anything... except our own choices... addiction I feel is a peephole view into this concept. Hopefully the rest of the ego can topple from there.