Apologies, Avrohom answered a question I deleted on editing which was "why do you feel shame?"

Thank you for helping me understand step 5 better. "We admitted...the exact nature of our wrongs."

If it's not specific it's too easy to avoid the issue by hiding behind profound words.

As Harvey says "you can't be too dumb to get this program, you can only be too smart to get this program".

Avrohom, I'm worried that you're suffering from an acute case of intelligence .

I am startin' step 1 with a sponsor, and workin' the program religiously for the first time. Perhaps eventually I will know what you mean.

cordnoy wrote:


Amazing!! Congratulations!!

Baruch Hamokom boruch hu she'ein lefonov masoy ponim.

May He guide you every step of the way.

Amen.

Although accordin' to SA rules, like we have discussed privately in the past, I cannot, at the present moment, be an honest member of the Club.

cordnoy wrote:


so ur a real הבא לטהר

well u know what we r promised:
מסייעין לו

ברוך אתה ה' אלקינו מלך העולם שפטרני מעונשו של זה!!!!

which means that the source of my struggles.....we have parted ways!

Done!!!

wow wow
just to prove the
מסייעין לו
wow
we just need to start
ה' יגמור בעדינו

cordnoy wrote:


Aha! she is the source.
clear road ahead, you think
maybe you shouldn't get off of the tank yet
Hatzlacha

kilochalu wrote:


Please explain

no chidushim
just the nusach sounds like she was the issue not me even though thats not really what you meant to say
also
the Done!!! with the 3 exclamations, even though obviously you just meant it is a relief and a major step,
and like i emailed you kol hakavod for that,
but
we always have to make sure not to become overconfident, and as much as we are sure that we know that and we won't,
somehow it starts creeping up on us (the becoming confident) that now , finally , this is it Done!!!

(as far as the b size 4, that must be some formatting thing from the quote maybe from your boruch shepitarani)

Someone asked me that if I am referrin' to her, it should say "onshah" her!?

I replied: I am the one who is at fault and to be blamed.

Thanks

However, suppose he isn’t going to be embarrassed but he will get angry or upset. Imagine a case where by asking forgiveness, he is merely opening up old wounds that were already forgotten about. Is it better to just forget about it and not approach the man who we upset, or is it better to approach him and remind him of something upsetting we did to him even several years back? Does it matter that in the name of asking this man forgiveness I am upsetting him even more? What does Halacha say about a case like this?
The classic Jewish answer is of course, that this is a matter of dispute. It gets even better-there is a dispute amongst later sages whether this was a matter of dispute or not!
There are actually two distinct cases:
a) Where the victim doesn’t even know that I harmed him in some way and if I reveal it to him now, he will get upset; it is possible that if the victim knew what happened but now forgot, it is as if he never knew
b) Where the victim is aware that I harmed him but by bringing it up with him now it will make him upset.

Below, I quote opinions that support step nine in the case where the victim doesn’t know that the alcoholic harmed him:

The Chofetz Chaim may argue on this point with R’ Yisrael Salanter (source-see sefer Piskei Teshuvos on Orach Chaim 406, letter 4, p. 256 who quotes sefer Az Nidbaru vol. 7, response 66 and sefer Moadim Uzmanim vol. 1, 54; quoting theChofetz Chaim in sefer Chofetz Chaim Klal 5, 12; however, this is according to the report that there is a letter from the Chofetz Chaim to R’ A. A. Kosovsky which supposedly says that he argues with R’ Yisrael Salanter; this historical piece of information is found in Mishna Brura Dirshu edition, Orach Chaim 406, 3 in footnote 10; and see Halichos Shlomo in Asseres Yimay Teshuva, note 5, which says that R’ Salanter directly argued with the Chofetz Chaim in a face to face manner, and they refer the reader to see “Dugma LiDarchei Avi” authored by R’ Leib, the son of the Chofetz Chaim, p. 111; viyeish liayin).

However, not everyone agrees that the Chofetz Chaim argued with R’ Salanter about this.

R’ Nissin Karelitz is of the opinion that they had no argument about this whatsoever (source-see Mishna Brura Dirshu edition, Orach Chaim 406, 3 in footnote 10 quoting sefer Chut Shani, Hilchos Yom Kippur 106).

If the Chofetz Chaim and R’ Yisrael Salanter argued about this, then the Chofetz Chaim may argue with step nine in the case where making amends to somebody would harm them and make them angry and upset, while according to R’ Yisrael Salanter the Halacha would forbid you from asking forgiveness so as not to upset the man, which is exactly like step nine; and if we go like R’ Nissin Karelitz that these two Torah leaders never even had a dispute about this, then both the Chofetz Chaim and R’ Salanter would be extremely supportive of this clause in step nine.

R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (source-see Halichos Shlomo in Asseres Yimay Teshuva), living one generation after this supposed dispute, rules like R’ Salanter that holds the person wanting to ask forgiveness should not do so in a case where the person does not know about the harm caused, and by revealing it to him it will make him upset. This also supports step nine in cases where the victim does not know about what the alcoholic did to him.

Certainly, step nine is rooted on the opinion of one of our major contemporary Torah leaders in the case where the victim doesn’t know that the alcoholic did something to him.

What about in a case where the victim does know that you harmed him, but by asking him forgiveness it will make him angry and there’s a large chance that nothingwill be accomplished? Even if you know that eventually something will be accomplished, does that justify angering him now? Is it permitted now? Similarly, what if the victim forgot what happened, even though he technically knew about it at one point? By asking him forgiveness it will cause the victim to remember the misdeed and get upset-is a person required to ask forgiveness in this case?

Although I have not finished doing an extensive research on these questions at this time, I did consult with two Rabbis who both immediately confirmed my hunch that even in these cases one would not be permitted to ask forgiveness, since, according to R’ Yisrael Salanter’s rationale, one’s obligation to do teshuva and ask forgiveness does not justify making somebody else upset, and therefore “it is not in his power” to ask forgiveness in all these circumstances. According to this outlook, step nine is congruent with Halacha even in the case where the victim knows about what was done to him.

To sup it all up, we discussed three cases:
a) Where the victim doesn’t know what the alcoholic did to him
b) Where the victim knew at one point that the alcoholic did, but now he forgot what happened
c) Where the victim never forgot and knew all along what the alcoholic did to him
In any of these three cases, R’ Yisrael Salanter would seem to forbid asking forgiveness.

Accordingly, the only case where one would one need to ask forgiveness would be in the manner, time, place, and case where by asking the forgiveness it does not cause harm to others.

Now let’s look at the words of step nine one more time and see if this fits:
“Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others”

Conclusion: This step seems to be exactly what Halacha requires in this regard.

By the way, even if one cannot ask the victim forgiveness so as not to upset him, he can and should still ask forgiveness in a general manner, without divulging what he is asking forgiveness for. This is mentioned in Halacha and in 12 step literature (source-see Orach Chaim 406, Mishna Brura 3, viaino mistabeir lichaleik; also see Piskei Teshuvos here exactly on our case, 4; also see 12 Steps and 12 Traditions p. 83).

In regards to money owed to the victim both the 12 step literature and Halacha require that the alcoholic return stolen money or property no matter what (source-see Orach Chaim 406, Mishna Brura 1 and Shar HaTzion 2; also see 12 Steps and 12 Traditions p. 84). This does not contradict anything we said until now from R’ Salanter; it is still possible to return the money without upsetting the victim. According to some Torah authorities, it may be possible to return stolen money even without telling the victim that it was he that stole the item. This is the type of question that you should ask your personal Rabbi since there are many opinions about this in Halacha. Alternatively, one may want to ask his Rabbi if one can return the stolen money to the victim without telling him why he is giving him this money. This is also permitted by many authorities in special circumstances. I will not delve into this now, viyaaseh sheilas chacham.

There once was Cordnoy, talmid chacham 12-stepper,
Who broke down the steps, a real halachic shlepper,
He signs B'hatzlacha,
A mensch with his bracha,
KOMT on chizuk posts does he pepper!