So, several of us have been talkin' today and the question was: Will there be a time when the disease/sickness/(y"h)/desire will be exorcised from us?

The answer given was as follows:

a farmer had many horses that he couldn't afford to feed.
he decided on a plan.
for the past year, each of the horses was eating a bushel of hay.
He would slowly wean them off of it.
The first week, he gave them only three-quarters of a bushel full.
By the third week, he was saving considerable amount of money, for he was only providing each horse with half a bushel of hay.
On the fifth week, he gave them three stalks apiece and the sixth week, he gave them nothing!

the next day, all the horses were dead!

The farmer looked up at heaven and exclaimed, "And they were just gettin' used to it!"

yes but that's when its a sickness on its own but when you talk about this sickness it llives in our blood and the proof is that you can starve it for a long time and then fall what happened? the answer my friend is that adom liomol yulad and we goota work on this

dd wrote:


אין הדבר תלוי אלא בי (ע"ז י"ז.)

I just couldn't resist posting this chapter of Tanya, as we are talking about getting rid of our bad traits ect. I hope you read Hebrew (I'm not a Chaba"d just inspired by this).


:

friends its our Avodah to do it, Hashem has Nachas from it, and we benefit too.

(I hope this posts well)

cordnoy wrote:


I'm not smart enough to know the real answer to this, but barrin' addiction mentalities and brain-wirin' stuff, the bottom line is that the stuff we do...one way or the other....is somethin' which is extremely pleasurable.....it is somethin' that is soothin', relaxin', removes us from the daily pressures of life (some of these thoughts are more prevalent to me than others; for others, the list might be slightly different), it transposes us to somewhere far away in la-la land where everythin' is perfect and we are the king and there are people dotin' over our specific needs (and whisperin' sweet nothin's into our ear - somethin' that perhaps we don't hear enough from our loved ones), and let's face it: we have experienced it....some of us have not gotten caught, some of us have, and for some of us - the people close to us know and understand that we are 'workin' on it.

so, what am I sayin'? Simply that even after starvation for a while, we can revert back to the same place we were before and worse, for we realize what is there waitin' for us.

That bein' said, it is quite possible that some of the things goin' on in our brain, leadin' us astray, might very well be some defective behavior and attitudes that we are tryin' to mask and to cover up and to soothe over with these 'actin' out' actions and thoughts and fantasies, and if we would make an honest and moral inventory (Step 4 and 5) as to what we are about, as to what can be rectified in our life, it just may very well end up that we will somewhat rectify those wrongs, and due to that, when at some later point in time, we feel down, depressed, playful, haughty, or whatever other emotion happens to be our particular trigger, we will be able to remain steadfast and strong, for we will not need our poisonous drug to hide our dishonesty; we can deal with it straight-up and honestly.

b'hatzlachah

A babblin' soul

dd wrote:


that is the chakira..to be or not to be.....

Speakin' about honesty and stuff, here is Dov, in his famous 'Captain kirk' post, explainin' the benefits of openin' up to real people:

There was once an episode of Star Trek in which there was a time travel shtick, and the Kirk of the present, went 10 years into the past. Now, there was another Kirk then, too, right?

That was a big problem. The scientists told him that normally two of the same people cannot coexist. It just does not happen. But as this was an exception (it was a TV show and they were getting paid $15,000 per episode) as long as the old Kirk did not actually meet the present Kirk, all would be fine. However, if they actually met each other, the entire Time-Space Continuum would be 'ripped asunder' (chas veSholom). Under no circumstances could they be allowed to meet!

I do not remember what actually happened to Mr Shatner, but everything turned out OK for there were another few seasons of the show (and also we are all still here, no?). But my point is just this:

How does a frum guy get all drawn into his very private porn, admitting by his actions its awesome, sweet power for him, and privately have sex with himself (masturbate) with such intensity and imaginative pleasure and power? OK, so he has shame, self-loathing, and sadness afterward. But how does he do both tefillin, teaching Torah, being mekareiv and really davening for others hard and really crying for the churban, and really working on his middos....and masturbating himself with a fantasy that could only mean he (secretly) also worships the beauty and power of those naked shiksas and the act of sex? How does such a contradiction survive in him?

How does it survive in us?
My answer to myself is simple. We learn to lie a little. We lie to others and we lie to ourselves. We'll quit really soon. We won't do it any more when we are twenty....or fifty. Never on Shabbos. Never with masturbation. Etc. All lies, to ourselves. And over time, we learn to lie more and more without even noticing it, just as you cannot see yourself grow.

When we are being good, we feel good about ourselves and we wish we could forget the bad stuff we did last night - we call that a hirhur teshuvah. Really it is just so we do not hate ourselves so badly, but that's OK. We learn not to face it right now by pretending that we are 'forgiven' by Hashem. That way, one persona does not invade the other so much. It gets put off till the next time, if we are lucky.

When we are being 'bad', we wish we could forget how devoted we are to Hashem and His Torah and to our wives and children and to honesty with society - because it just feels so good to do the porn and we really see no way out of it. We know we need it and do not in a million years believe there is really an alternative for us, in the end. We end up 'ignoring' our kedusha during the act. That is lying to ourselves, and again, one persona does not see the other simultaneously. Pretending we are really rotten to the core is a much more comfortable way to act out. Nu. Who wants to hurt so much?

We walk about for years and are tortured inside, for we know the dichotomy we are hiding - we are the dichotomy. But we do not really know what to do. We fight to make one side gain mastery over the other and call that hisgabrus al hayeitzer. And we fall. Then we assume we are horrible Jews, and assume that Hashem agrees with us about that. That mistake is a hard one to shake...(see step 2)

So now about the time-travel dilemma.
When we open up to others under a username (or fake English name in a meeting) and share the entire truth (which most rarely do) about our addiction, we are still hiding our 'good' persona - the real me. It's OK to let them know the horrible dirt - yeah, all of it - as long as they do not know the 'good' persona too well. The two are just incompatible.

Thos who got caught by their wives or children know exactly what I am talking about. They understand why they getting caught was so effectivbe for a time - the desire to use the porn left them as a result of getting both personae dragged into the room at the same time. The horror of getting caught with my pants down by a co-worker, son, daughter, or wife is truly intolerable to anyone who has experienced it. Why?

Because the hypocrisy is mercilessly forced to come to a bitter end. The Time-Space Continuum has ripped asunder. We look frantically for a place to bury ourselves. It's hell.

It is the two Kirks being forced to see eachother by a third party - and only a party who knows both personae can possibly do that. Till that happens, we are all players. Lying a bit about the 'real us' to ourselves and to others.

Some of us insist on solving our problem without bringing the two personae together. Perhaps they are just avoiding the terribly painful end of their hypocrisy, perhaps not. I do not know what is best for another. But in my own case, I got caught, and it still didn't help. After a few weeks I was back at it and it got worse and worse until I couldn;t take it any more. i was begging for someone to rip off my cover and get me real! My wife could not do that, for she does not understand what I am talking about when I describe the desperation to get the sweet porn in my mind and heart and does not understand the allergy to it that I have.

So I needed real meetings - with real addicts. Perverts for decades who chose the path of sobriety because they had no choice. Just like me. People who can hear both sides of me. And I use my real name, wear my normal Jewish outfit, and talk with them freely about my real life.

And that flows out into being real with everybody else in my life, whether they know about my problem, or not.

And that is why so many of us are OK with goyim in meetings, but shrink into a corner when they meet a frum yid. There is a common strong desire to avoid and evade. And I do not blame them, for I had that, too. Here is a guy who can bring them even closer to the true full self! It's more pain to go through. But more healing, too.

Interestingly, I have seen newly recovering program-guys meet people from the meeting in public places just 'out of the blue' and totally ignore them, as if they didn't know them at all. Those guys did not remain sober. I think they may have been shocked by the cross-over from their 'meeting life' into their 'real life'. They were not willing to smile discreetly and say a polite "Hi" to the other guy. Instead, here was trouble - "so get away from me quick." Oy vavoi.

This is precisely why AA has a strong tradition of real anonymity. We do not reveal the identity of anyone else we meet in the rooms to non-members. Ever. But it's not about shame, at all. It's because sharing the secrets of others will not help their recovery at all! Only the truth that they want to share will help them.

Those who just get caught and stay clean out of fear of further humiliation never, ever stay better. Getting humiliated into sobriety does not work, until there is some humility added. Humilty (in hachno'oh to the truth) is the underpinning of the steps.

And that is why 'accountability groups' are nice but will ultimately fail, as long as they are based on avoiding shame - which they can easily become all about.

And that is why opening up to the wife (and remaining consistently open with her) is so very powerful - when done at the right time. It is powerful medicine for my recovery and powerful medicine for the marriage. Honesty there removes yet another layer of hiding from ourselves that has to go to the boards for true freedom.

Sharing my credit card number and address would not do any of these things for me, and neither would pulling up my pant-leg. It's not about compromising my security, nor my anonymity. It's not about getting hurt nor for the sake of being punished for all my wrongs until I can finally be good. This is not Teshuvah and it is not sigufim. It's all and only about being the real me with everyone that I can be, to the extent that I can be without violating the health of my family and others. We do the best we can in that, and ask Hashem to make it work right. And it works, period.

thanks for a refreshing honest look at things.
even though i understand that the two "halves" meeting can make an amazing effect, like you wrote so nicely,
i would think that ultimate goal is to be "whole" with ourselves, without having to rely on outside influence,
but realistically speaking it seems that this seems a bit out of the human orbit,
i am basing this on chazal that say that one of the tanna'im blessed his talmidim that they should fear Hashem like a "b'sor v'dom", and they asked "is that it?" and he asked "halevei" [if only],
so when ones relationship with Hashem is like someone knowing the two halves, it seems to be quite a madraiga, [ and a reality check ].

Here’s the other side of this debate; we will now bring opinions that prayers like the type on step seven are indeed effective:

The Avudraham holds that it is effective to ask God for Yiras Shamayim, just like we ask in the end of U’va Litziyon in the siddur (and just like we ask in the bracha of rosh chodesh before mussaf). This is true despite the Gemara in Brachos 33b that says “everything is in the hands of heaven except yiras shamayim (source-see the Avudraham on the prayer found in the end of Uva Litzion “viyaseim bilibeinu ahavaso viyir’aso” quoted by sefer Ohel Rama on Brachos 33b; the Avrudraham itself is found in the Even Yisrael & Frank edition, p. 137, and found in the table of contents under “pirush al tefilah lidavid”). The rationale of the Avudraham as to why one can pray for yiras shamayim is the same as the Maharsha, Nesivos, and Vilna Goan below, as we will soon see. His basis is the Gemara in Yoma 38b and Shabbos 104a which says “if a person takes steps towards purity, heaven will assist him”; in other words, although heaven does not give yiras shamayim out for free, they do give it out to people who seek it.

The Maharsha (souce see Maharsha in Moed Katan 28a and in Kidushin 81b; quoted by Chidushei Geonim in Ein Yakov, Brachos 33b) says that despite the fact that “all is in the hands of heaven except for yiras shamayim”, it certainly helps to pray for yiras shamayim. In fact, Moshe Rabbeinu prayed for the Jewish people to do teshuva as we find in Sota 14b. The Maharsha says the reason why prayer helps is because of another Gemara (Shabbos 104a) which says that “if a person makes an effort to become pure, heaven helps him”, and this is why R’ Chiya Bar Ashi had a custom of praying every day “Merciful one-please save me from the evil inclination”. It seems according to the Maharsha that when the Gemara in Brachos 33b says that heaven does not get involved in matters of yiras shamayim, it means that heaven doesn’t give out yiras shamayim for free-no one is born with yiras shamayim or has “good mazal” and suddenly stumbles upon yiras shamayim. However, if you were to ask heaven for it, they would give it to you (see also the Maharsha in Avodah Zara 5a which seems to say that the Jewish people were criticized in the Torah for not asking for Yiras Shamayim, eyin sham).

Is there an alternative way to read the Gemara which bothered R’ Moshe Feinstein?
Several commentators explain the meaning of the Gemara in Brachos 33b in the exact opposite manner from which R’ Moshe Feinstein understood it. According to them, the Gemara is teaching us that although everything is in the hands of heaven so there’s no guarantee that one’s prayer will be heard, nonetheless, when a Jew asks for yiras shamayim it is guaranteed that heaven will answer his prayer! (source-see sefer Pardeis Yosef, parshas Eikev 10, 12 in the name of the Rebbe of Kotzk as well as from sefer Arugas Habosem in the introduction to the second edition; also in the name of the Chidushei Harim quoted by sefer Ohel Rama, Brachos 33b).

The Vilna Goan (source-see sefer Even Shleimah 5, 3) teaches that yiras shamayim is something that heaven gives gift to people that show an effort to try to obtain it. This seems to be like the opinion of the Maharsha and Avudraham.

I actually used the above this morning durin' Shemoneh Esrei....not sure if it helped any, but I'm sure it didn't hurt either.

cordnoy wrote:


The Nesivos Sholom on Mechiyas Amoleik Quotes the Mesilas Yeshorim that the midah of Kedusha and Emunah (which are in turn are combined) is beyond the reach of the human to the ultimate top level, but if he toils hard enough it will be given to him as a gift.

With this he explains the differences of the pesukim תמחה את זכר עמלק which means the human has to eradicate Amalek, whilst כי מחה אמחה means Hashem will do it.

Its up to each and every individual to work hard on reaching goals in Yiras Shomayim, day by day, minute by minute, eventually he will get there.

And as I quoted before the Tanya, ומקדושה זו נמשכת קדושה עליונה על האדם למטה לסייעו סיוע רב ועצום לעבודתו ית'. וז"ש רז"ל אדם מקדש עצמו מעט למטה מקדשין אותו הרבה מלמעלה.

lavi wrote:


Whoa, Lavi. You just quoted one of the Chaza"ls that express my experience of the 12-step program the best of all. But that's for later.

When thinking over your response and use of that Chaza"l, it seems to me that you are seeing that Chaza"l as somehow saying we are stuck as two people. Dishonest to G-d, as it were.

But RYB"Z was just saying that we do not really take G-d as seriously as we like to think we do. He is after all, invisible. We do not hear Him speak to us. He never makes Himself obvious at all.

In other words, we are not really two people - the good believer and the poor believer. We need to just face the fact that we are poor believers, period. And he was telling that to some tanno'im! It's obviously no sin to be a poor believer, for it is obviously the normal human state - even for some of the tanno'im. We are just poor believers and for that reason, we are actually pretty OK with sinning once in a while, as long as no one can see us do it.

The business about captain Kirk and being two people, refers to the way we want others to perceive us as people vs. the kind of lifestyle we want to and actually live - who we really are. And we would almost rather die than have those two halves forced together, for it would kill our freedom! The shame is unbearable, yes - but that is not the point of the pain. It kills the person we are dying to be - our sexual freedom and hopes of really living and getting what we are convinced will save us: sweet erotic pleasure.

It only applies to addicts, not sinners.

Sinners are not two people, in this sense. Sure, we all have secrets we wish to hide. That is not addiction. That is just about shame. And that is all RYB"Z is referring to. Don't think you are really a true ma'amin, for you are not. Face it. And respond by working on your emunah, of course.

But typically, all the emunah-work in the world will not save an addict until he goes through the hell of the 1st step and is able to admit to another human being face to face the exact truth about himself in explicit detail - and actually does so. It is usually the only way the fake me can ever die. Until that happens, real sobriety eludes us.

And working the steps will recreate within him an emunah that actually works, this time. It is a gift...kind like the GR"A quoted above and the Tanya. But I do not see what kedusha or yir'as Shomayim have to do with sobriety. They boruch Hashem have nothing to do with mine, nor with the sobriety of practically any sober man I know.

Thanks for letting me share that, hope it's helpful to someone.

Love you!

- Dov

The Nesivos (source-see sefer Emess LiYakov on agada, authored by the Ba’al Nesivos Hamishpat on Choshen Mishpat, p. 31 in the Minchas Shalom edition, also found in the sefer under Shabbos 32b) says that although his opinion is that a Jew cannot pray that another Jew gets yiras shamayim or does teshuva (this is a matter of debate-see Chazon Ish vol. Orach Chaim & Moed p. 516 and Maharsha in Kidushin 81b), nonetheless, the Jew can certainly pray for himself to obtain yiras shamayim. To support his opinion, the Nesivos relies on the Maharsha that we brought above.

The Iyun Tefilah (source-see siddur Otzar Hatfilos, on the last bracha of birchos haShachar) asks on the last bracha of birchos haShachar “how could the chazal write in the text of the siddur things in this bracha like ‘force my yetzer to be subdued to you’? Isn’t this contradictory to what the Gemara says (the same Gemara that R’ Moshe based himself on above in Brachos 33b) that “everything is in the hands of heaven except for the fear of heaven”?

The Iyun Tefilah answers that this Gemara is qualified by a second Gemara in Makos 10b which says “in the way that a man chooses to go, it is in that way that they lead him”. The commentators on this Gemara in Makos explain what it means “it is in that way that they lead him”. Who is “they” referring to? According to some, “they” may refer to heaven. If so, then the Iyun Tefilah is essentially giving the same explanation as the Maharsha, that although heaven does not give out yiras shamyim “for free”, they will give it to someone who demonstrates a desire and interest in attaining it.

It is also possible to explain “they” in the Gemara in Makos as referring to angels. The Maharsha there (see Maharsha in Makos 10b) explains that every time a person has a desire to do anything, it creates an angel. These angels pull and influence a person to continue in the direction in which he desired. If he desired to do evil, the angels pull him to do evil. If he desires yiras shamayim, the angels will pull and influence him to attain yiras shamayim. If the Iyun Tefilah understands the Gemara in Makos this way, then it is a new and unique explanation for how praying for yiras shamayim works; it wouldn’t be the prayer per se that helps the man attain yiras shamayim, but the desire in his mind that he would like to attain yiras shamayim that is the central mechanism.

There are questions according to either explanation of who “they” is referring to in the Gemara in Makos 10b, but either way we know one thing for sure-that the Iyun Tefilah is another opinion on the long list of sages who understood that praying for yiras shamayim is something important and effective.

Author’s note: Realize that the Maharsha above based himself on the Gemara in Shabbos 104a, while the Iyun Tefilah based himself on the Gemara in Makos 10b; yaish liayin what the machlokes is between these two commentaries on the deeper level, vidok.

In fact, there are at least three opinions now all within the camp of those who say that one can pray for yiras shamayim
a) You have the Avudraham, Marsha, [Vilna Goan & Chazon Ish], and Nesivos who says one can do this because of the Gemara in shabbos 104a
b) You have the Iyun Tefilah who bases himself on the Gemara in Makos 10b
c) You have the Chidushei Harim, Rebbe of Kotzk, and Arugas Habosem who say the source for this is within the Gemara in Brachos itself, except that one must read the Gemara in the exact opposite way than from the norm, that the only thing that heaven doesn’t meddle with is prayers for yiras shamayim, vidok, vian kan makom liha’arich.

Heck of a number!

Most of them should probably be deleted for one reason or another anyway.

oh well....onward!

Congrats!