Wish I would know the answer to that.

I do know that when workin' the steps or workin' anythin', and certainly if one is consciously aware that each decision is close to life n' death, or perhaps 'is' (like I see in my present situation); then slowly, slowly, the ratzon goes away to some extent....for an addict, it'll probably always be there, but he knows and has the tools to combat.

that bein' said.....b'hatzlachah

I we don't generate will not to lust. We remove our will and attach ourselves to Hashem's will. We accept His will to be ours!

Very nice , DMS.

Thinking about it, that is also one very effective method to (eventually) get YOURSELF to desire the right thing more intensely.

ineedchizuk wrote:


The entire notion of willpower is kind of an illusion. We have a disease ( or super powerful Yetzer Hara if thats your preferred understanding) that you CANNOT beat on your own. Only Hashem can help us overcome it. So using logic, that means Hashem is the one determining if He will help you overcome or not. So a better question to ask would be:

Why is Hashem allowing me to be tested by Lust? or even falling victim to it? And I don't mean "Why" as in why Hashem chooses a specific method, we cant understand Hashem. I mean "Why" as in "For what purpose" or "to what end" does He make us be tempted? What does He want our reponse to be??

the answer is to encourage you to really get close to Him. To call out to Him for help. To realize that there's Only Him and nothing else. I'm sure you've seen Dov say, that the second he believes that he (Dov) is keeping himself sober, he's finished. Because to believe you can cause any outcome is arrogance. Hashem determines all outcomes.

How do we acheive this mindset? That Ein Od Milvado? It used to be simply avoid aveiros and do mitzvos. But in today's day and age, this disease (or YH) has gotten so strong that even performing mitzvos can corrupt further. Instead of building more belief in Hashem, one only believes more in their own greatness. Which is why you hear so many horror stories about frum, religious people suffering from this and other terrible addictions. How, if they're learning so much Torah? How, if they're performing so many mitzvos so carefully? How, if they're reading so much mussar? The answer is that behind the action, the spirituality is corrupted. And as I already said, instead of strengthening their Emunas Hashem, the mitzvos, Torah, and mussar only go to strengthen their thoughts about their own superiority.

What to do? What's the solution? Why is the 12 steps seem to be so much more effective?
First, of all, the beginning steps start with a change of heart and mindset. The realization that hey, you're not king of the universe and you cant do this thing alone. You DONT have the ratzon! After that, a lot of the 12 steps involve prayer. Not siddur book prayer, but straight from your heart prayer. Nothing removes arrogance and builds real emuna more than your own prayers from your heart and soul. You sit/stand/lie there speaking to no one physically in front of you? What's more affirming of something greater than you than that? Go to meetings and realize your struggles are nothing special, that many others struggle with the same problem. Admit your own struggles to others. Helps you realize you're not better than anyone else. Boom! big drop in arrogance, big taste of practicing humility.

The avoda is not building a stronger desire to not Lust, its building a closer to connection to Hashem thru prayer, humility, honesty, and good ACTION.

Generating will not to lust is a wonderful method, as it is to do any other mitzvah or not do an aveira. Like anything else, it may have possible side effects, which you have so eloquently addressed.

But I'm also hearing an excellent method to generate that ratzon: Beg Hashem that you should be disgusted by lust. And that you should have a tremendous desire for kedusha and Tahara.

Alternatively (or concurrently), I personally find that reading anything written by Dov builds up my ratzon to not lust.

Through all his talking about how sweet porn is, etc, often ending with the puddle on the floor through sex with self, what I end up seeing is how much it is ruining me. And how much I don't want that! Basically, he's showing me, in hindsight, how disgusting it is to ME!
That makes me wanna work harder to keep lust out out my life, and to be clean.

When you beg Hashem etc as you mentioned, you're not generating ratzon, you're actually bringing Hashem closer to you! thats what keeps the lust at bay!

You can read and read and read but Dov himself says all the time, ACTIONS are what keep a person clean. Talking to Hashem, connecting with others, helping others, performing kindnesses for others. Those actions are what brings Hashem closer and He in turn keeps a person clean.

One can think and think and think and will and will and will and desire and desire and desire and read and read and read but unless one puts the bechira into play thru ACTION, eventually one will fall.
Thats the lesson I've learnt and the lesson Dov constantly seems to be trying to get thru everyone else's heads as well.

You're saying good stuff.

To do all that you mention, takes.... willpower.

True that one shouldnt wait around for inspiration in order to act, but that very concept takes willpower. And by internalizing the chochma that you are articulating- that I should do even though I don't FEEL like doing, makes one WANT to do/ pray even when not inspired!

So there's another one: internalizing what we 'know'. In other words, והשבות אל לבבך!

OK, I'll say it your way.

All the motivation i initially had to start talking to Hashem and doing good came from the wanting to avoid the pain of eventually falling in one way or another. Thru my addiction, thru a rage attack, thru unhappiness in life.

But the only way i keep my willpower or ratzon to avoid Lust, etc is by consistently staying close to Hashem thru simple honest prayer and unselfish gemilut chasadim.

If I dont pray or DO good, past experience has shown me: Hashem turns away and eventually I fall. I'm not strong enough on my own. As SA puts it, I'm powerless.

Another thing, part of what I pray for is PRAYER and the DOING GOOD!

Hashem, help me open my mouth to properly thank you. Hashem, don't let the yetzer hara shut my mouth because of shame, laziness, our any other negative emotion. Hashem, help me talk to You and make you my best friend! Hashem, help me to keep making shiva calls and going to SA meetings. Hashem help me do whatever it takes to keep you close.
Hashem, thank you for my health. Hashem, thank you for GYE. Hashem, thank you for keeping me clean for one more day. Hashem, thank you for my arrogant thoughts just now . I'm powerless to this arrogance, Hashem. I don't want it. Only You can take it away. Please Hashem, i give it up to you. Please take it. Hashem, thank you for my wife. Thank you for opening my mouth for these last 5 minutes. Please help me to keep talking to You all day long. Before and after every thing.

Ineedchizuk, I hope reading all this helps you...not to be inspired for willpower but to get you to actually call out to Hashem yourself! He is the only ratzon you need!!

I can't believe this is all happenin' on this thread.
Hashem is good and pray to Him always, but....

Actions are what you can do.
you need to go to SA.
you need to see therapist.
you need to open up to real people.
you need to get out of isolation.
you need to guard your eyes.
you need to install filters.
you need to learn mussar.


And with every step of the way, pray to God to assist you.

Cordnoy, i agree with all your steps of hishtadlus and if you read other posts of mine, you'll see i am doing what you said (except the therapist part).

But as you yourself said:

cordnoy wrote:


All of one's efforts won't lead to success without proper prayer because ultimately He decides the outcome, not you or me.

Look what happens time and again on this forum: someone find this site out of desperation (usually after a cry out to G-d for help). He/She start taking all the different steps you list: chizuk emails, filter, therapy, etc and what is most people's reaction?

"I feel so much stronger. I'm staying clean. I can do this."

Then a short while later, they fall.

why? What's missing? Prayer to G-d for assistance. By praying to Hashem for everything, we guard ourselves from the arrogance of saying we accomplished everything. If one asks for His help beforehand, one is more likely to thank Him for His help after achieving success instead of it going to one's head.

Once a person starts admitting they can't do this on their own, no matter how much effort they put in, but only thru prayer and staying close to Hashem see real succesd in staying sober, (Steps 1-3) they can start the process of improving themselves and fixing the mess in their lives using His help. (steps 4-10) After seeing how sticking with Hashem, their higher power consistently brings success, they start to realize that in every aspect of their life they should be turning to Him and do so whenever necessary each and every day. (Steps 11-12)

Prayer ultimately trumps Hishtadlus . You see this time and again in history how we weren't saved until we called out to Hashem. But we need the hishtadlus because it's also arrogant for us to expect miracles. Asking Hashem to guard my eyes but then walking down the street with my glasses on and looking straight ahead; the only thing that would save me from seeing a trigger would be a miracle.

Thanks

I'd rather not debate prayer on this site, but to think that the reason, and according to you, it seems the only reason they fell again, is because they are missin' prayer - to me - is not an accurate statement.

b'hatzlachah

cordnoy wrote:


i agree.

lavi wrote:


Cordnoy, you always seem take everything I write as totally black and white when we both know the world is filled with gray.

But since you insist on black and white (Read accuracy), here is my black and white statement on the importance of prayer. Feel free to disagree:

One can do as much hishtadlut as one is physically able, (meetings, forums, 12 steps, therapy, etc) but if one does not include prayer to Hashem for help in succeeding as part of that effort, one will never know true freedom from this disease - RECOVERY.


(I do want to say Thank You for mentioning therapy in your effort list, though. My wife mentioned therapy recently as well and i shrugged it off. With the additonal mention from you, I will bli neder take the advice (Hashem has pushed at me twice) and try to find a therapist.)

sorry

please check the way you write and it seems that it's black or white.

how do the non-Jews recover?
is it with prayer to their god?
And if yes, so then accordin' to you, what is actually happenin'?

In my belief, as the closest thing to black n' white - if it needs to be, is the # 1 cause for recovery is effort, not prayer.

I do appreciate that what you write, but I feel strongly that the tachlis of this site is to help people recover, and I therefore take stands.

May hashem grant us the will to choose wisely (somethin' that I haven't been doin' lately...not as much prayin' for this, and certainly - not enough usin' wisemind).

b'hatzlachah