I am sorry, but I don't understand what youre gettin' at at all.
Are you referrin' to your marriage?
Is there a question here?
is there a disagreement?
Is there an issue?
I am not chappin' the flow.

If you want, please explain.

thanks

cordnoy wrote:


Thank you all for your tefillos.

I was just told that she had a healthy boy B"H!

Mazel Tov!

Was just on the phone with a dear chaver; he told me two meshalim.

If you place a cucumber in brine for a half hour, it can be washed off and you still have a cucumber.
If, however, you keep it immersed for a week, when you remove the brine, you will then have a pickle .... bye bye cuke!

This is what can happen to someone who immerses himself in p and m for a week, month or years.
[Has to do with addict/non-addict issue.]

Second mashal

The roller coaster is on the way up...guys like me can still get off (with minimal effort). Once it's on the way down, there ain't no stoppin' us. A non-addict, however, can even get off the roller coaster on the way down (don't try it, however!).

b'hatzlachah

point taken, thank-you for putting it in perspective.
i think that it may be debatable exactly what defines an addict,
and as well as the point of different levels of addiction,
and the good Lord should help us all.
(umm the last line is kinda like a blessing..and isn't up for debate)

I am not gettin' involved in what constitutes an addict or not...that has been hashed over here many a times.

and....Amen! thanks

From Dov:
Perhaps it might help some:

To my friends, I want to say that of course masturbating compulsively is a bris issue, too. But my point is that there are a huge number of guys for whom seeing their struggle as what it is not, is the main thing holding them in the problem. I meet guy after guy who keeps using porn and sex with himself and does not get clean because he insists on seeing the entire thing as about kedushas haBris.

There are many sweet chassidishe guys and yeshivishe guys I can connect you with on the phone who will tell you that the big change came for them when they finally realized that their religious problem was actually not mainly a religious one. In other words, that their issue was not really that they are resho'im. Now, they may have indeed been resho'im (and may still be, depending on your definition of that)! But they came to see that this was not the issue, as I will be"H explain.

Now, for many sweet, good yidden, it sounds crazy to say that "being a rosho is not your main problem". It sounds like one is saying goodness doesn't matter, c"v. Not true.

Yes! Their (our) behavior was bad. Very bad sin. But once they realized that it was also crazy and stupid from a totally Derech Eretz perspective, they were able to quit and get into recovery. And in recovery they are. And life is amazingly changed. And they are clean - or at least cleaner than ever.

Until that conclusion, they could not stop sinning, at all, and were mostly getting worse.

And telling them that their recovery 'is really just Teshuvah dressed up in plain clothes' is just as silly as thinking that an addict says he or she is an addict just to kill the guilt that depresses them and makes them sin again. It's missing the point entirely.

Finally, a moshol:

There are many things that are ossur and also dangerous and unhealthy. But when Chaza"l say chamira sakanta me'isura, does that mean that there is no issur? No. There is surely still issur - but their point is that the sakonah is far more relevant than the issur, even though sakonah is a secular issue (and so it is distinct from 'issur').

Same thing here. There is vadai pure evil and hence issur itself in sex and lust addiction - unlike alcoholism. And for the normal Jew there is Teshuvah for the issur. But for the addict, there is is no Teshuvah, for Teshuvah will not work. For the addict there is sakonah. He is sick and will not get well. The illness overrides the issur aspect completely. Sakanta chamirah me'isura.

You may think this a stretch, but I don't: The Ba'al Shem Tov used an emphasis on simcha and kabolah to raise the downtrodden masses of his time. What about telling them to learn a little more Torah? What about "Hafoch boh v'hafoch boh dekula boh"? What about "ki heim chayeynu"? No, that would spell churban. He dealt with the sakonah of the times in his way. And see the rebirth that came from it.

Many addicts in recovery discover that the sakonah must be the only focus - for the addict has crossed into sakonah from issur. His sanity and future are in the balance, unlike the sinner. That is his 1st step.

I think it is a tragedy that some people in recovery tell non-addicts that "you must come to believe you are powerless and addicted". They are not. There is issur and non-addicts need to fight and fight! But addicts are the ones for whom that does not work. Their own stories - not the pontification of others - must tell them this. They (we) are failures, and eventually see that. They alone, need to depend on G-d and cannot. And that is all the 12 steps are for. Letting go and getting a G-d.

The drinker and masturabter both play G-d in their addiction and lifestyle, no matter how religious they may be, though they do not see it.

But a normal person just sins.

This seems like a very fine hair to split, but it is the difference between recovery and more of the same garbage, for so many I meet. And I have been meeting at least one new guy a week now, on the phone - just on GYE. And nearly all tell the very same sad story. I am not making this up.

'Chizzuk' will kill them, their families, and their future - if they are addicts.

There is a famous (to those that have heard it) SA talk entitled 'crazy not evil'. The title says it all really.

From the BB:

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life's terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.

The question we all face at some point (maybe at several points) is the very question 'am I an addict?'


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cordnoy wrote:


thank you for very articulate and relevant post.
since you are speaking from you own experience and many others who you mention, it is very hard to argue with the facts you are presenting.
so i won't argue.
but allow me to voice a few points.
1) while it is wholely (and holy) understandable that recovery is based on getting away from danger, and the steps to recovery are purely logical, and are approachable from a secular point of view, this can be considered a step in teshuva, since teshuva involves leaving alone sin, recovery can cover this base. now don't get me wrong, the main focus of recovery, can be from a derech eretz point of view, but AT THE SAME TIME COUNT AS A BEGINNING of teshuva. i personally see it for myself that way. but if you say that telling people, that there is a religious aspect in recovery, will disturb their recovery, then so be it, i'm just saying from my experience a different angle.

2) note that the rambam is hilchos dai'os and many other places includes many health related issues even though, they are technically not religious laws, rather to be healthy itself is a requirement, because without health we can't serve Hashem. again, if someone would have told me at the beginning of my recovery, focus totally on logical steps in recovery, just know that even these are considered mitzvos or the beginning of teshuva, it wouldn't bother me.

3) even physical illness and sakana's have been known to be helped through religious means. no, i don't mean JUST religious means, rather as a supplement.

4) it is understandable to tell an addict, to focus on recovery, and not at all on religion, can really help them, because it may cause confusion to grab too much or the pressure is too much. however the reason why at all he should recover is because he eventially he should become a good jew, this i will prove soon. Just obviously one should not tell this to every addict, or one should not focus on this. but the truth must be told, that recovery without teshuva is a body without a neshama.

5) i think you'll agree, that as soon as one can handle more than recovery, it is urgent that he gets back on track spiritially, and i don't mean just the learning and davening and mitzvos, i mean teshuva and the neccessary haskafas to put everything in perspective, but being left for a long time without these, is comparable to a person lying in hospital wired up to all kinds of things, barely moving, is this life? well, technically he's breathing! but compared to what an active healthy person can experience, this poor fellow in hospital is not really living it, again we need to take it slow yadayada, (i'm not making fun), but for me life without my religion is not life. i would think that every addict is allowed sometimes, even for a moment, to hope that his future will not end with just being a recovered addict rather a recovered jew, but then again i can't argue if you tell me that it simply isn't possible.

6) i do really appreciate your post, thank-you for bringing it up.

lavi wrote:


# 4 I disagree with vehemently: the reason why one should recover is in order for him to live again!

# 5 is an eventuality; nothin' to do with GYE; once he is completely settled.

just my opinion

re #4
i don't know if the will to live is always for everyone, the reason for recovery.
definintely those who commit suicide don't think so.
and others may need a reason to live, a furfulling purpose.
look around at all the depressed people.
and a depressed addict has it doublely hard,
if he doesn't feel his life is worthwhile changing, he won't change.
and others simply don't feel that their life is threatened, so as long as they stay that way, they won't change.

Survey the people on this site.
Many of them, and perhaps most, are sayin' that their life with p and m is unmanageable and they wanna change.
Are some depressed? Yes...but they still wanna move forward.
Someone who wants to commit suicide...if you tell him that he should do teshuvah first...I don't think that would work too well either.

i didn't say he should do teshuva first, it wouldn't help anyway. i said he needs a reason to live

cordnoy: I recall reading numerous times on this forum that we shouldn't spend too much time trying to figure out if we are real addicts or not. Does the post you quoted from Dov seem to indicate otherwise, or am I misunderstanding something?

Cordy, you always talk about that you're not doing it for tshuva, to be a better yid, closer to Hashem, etc.

I maintain that deep inside those are your intentions.

It's must be some kind of humility, where you don't want everyone to know how great you are. Or maybe you don't realize, but deep within you, the most important thing to you is to fulfill the ratzon Hashem. And that's what bothered you about life having been unmanageable.

And I will prove it!

For background, here's part of our conversation the other day from DD'S thread:

cordnoy wrote:



cordnoy wrote:


ineedchizuk wrote:



cordnoy wrote: