ontheedgeman wrote on 27 Aug 2012 02:39:


I am operating under my own beliefs. I share some of them with you, but some are different. For example you believe you are powerless, I don't. Since beliefs create behavior, all you have to do to find lots of people who have different beliefs is look at other people's behavior. For example, one talks in shul and one doesn't. Etc. they are everywhere.

Were you thinking of some specific beliefs?

Yes, fierce dedication to the truth is one of my beliefs. Better, I have a belief that lying to yourself is bad, maybe worse than acting out. I think i also have a belief that truth gets you more ruchnios than lies, because i believe that Hashem loves truth and dislikes made up concepts. But now that you mention it I am open to hearing any arguments you might have to change these beliefs of mine. Let me know your thoughts. I will choose what to believe in regardless of your arguments one way or the other.

I am sure that I am not only operating under that belief, because it takes a lot of different beliefs to accomplish anything. Are you reading my mind about a specific belief I might have? Are you afraid to get a certain belief and that it will jump from me to you?

alexeliezer wrote on 27 Aug 2012 14:06:


I believe that it's proven. If you really want to get some numbers you can probably find them. Maybe start from smartrecovery.org. Do you have information to the effect that it's uproven, as you say?

But I think what usually happens with cognitive therapy is that the person actually moves on. The therapy ends. If he went to a group for a while, he stops going. So there is a strong temptation to conclude that the guy was not an addict. In other words, the 12-step program becomes the definition of addiction. This is not a reliable conclusion.

I do not share this view. I believe that I am an addict and that I am successfully treating my addiction with cognitive therapy. In your choice of words you seemed to imply that I am just some guy, I.e. not an addict. Do you believe that? If you do you really shouldn't because you don't know. It would serve you better to suspend judgment there.

Definitely it works for me (so far). On this web site there is a forum called "what works for me." Can I save myself the trouble of arguing that the best solution could come from the most unexpected source?

I disagree with you about your last point. Did you know that if you learn hilchos lashon hara every day then when you get an opportunity to speak it you can stop yourself? Have you ever experienced that feeling when time stops and you choose to keep quiet? Same with addiction. Study the tools daily and time will stop.

Sorry R' Nederman but I'm with Edge and Alex, and since it's my thread then I'm right (what an ego I have!).

But seriously, as you and everyone elso said the only goal for all of us is to get sober with whatever works, we don't need to promote any specific way as the single valid method.

I personally identify with alex's idea that rational thinking won't help me when I'm completely irrational.

To maybe explain more, in my close family there is a person who is constantly exerting tremendous negative influence on us (i.e. driving us nuts), not because he a bad guy at all, in fact he a very good guy, it's just that his thinking process is completely twisted. There's nothing we can do about it, no words of explanation accomplish anything, because it's who he is - all the logic in the world won't explain to a monkey not to eat the banana. Until he decides to change himself, the only solution is to simply stay away.

So too with us addicts, our rational thinking is gone with the wind for everything even remotely connected to acting out, I don't think I can be changed from my own logic just as I can't use my logic to grow another arm. My only hope is to avoid lust completely, not to try to play around with the vicious hungry lion. And when he comes knocking, to daven to Hashem to get him away from me, I don't want him.

This is what has been working for me.

My progress report - almost 2 months since I went powerless, fell 3 times (in one week) from being triggered by negative emotions (as mentioned in previous posts). But to put it into perspective, I have been lusting since I was old enough to lust and have been masturbating since I was old enough to masturbate, nothing I did worked to stop me. And in essence nothing has changed, because even my present sobriety isn't a result of my self control, rather through avoiding lust completly and relying on Hashem to get me out of the tough spots.

I'll be honest, I fell also yesterday from another thing which I must learn to avoid, when my learning is going really good and I'm getting a lot of honor and respect from my peers, it gets to me inside and I enter fantasy land and feel very strong and powerfull, the first thing I lose is my "one day at a time" when I'm planning my glorious future, then I start feeling powerfull and cool, and then I forget (sounds funny, but I'm serious, I forget) that I'm powerless over lust - and then the game is over. I guess this is a trigger like a pretty women and angry feelings, must surrender it completly right away. Any ideas, chevra??

Wow, I think this is my longest post ever, ah, the musings of a sexaholic yearning to recover.

Hashem, please help me stay clean today!!!

there is a r' ovadia mebartenura somewhere in pirke avos who asks the following question: how can we ever suspect the kohen gadol on erev yom kippur if he's tamey? after all, he spent the entire week in purity! he answers that either one of the yetzers, the good AND the bad, fight against the other if he sees he's losing.so, after a whole week in purity, the yetzer hara sees he's losing, he makes every effort he can to beat the yetzer tov.similarly, when a person is dying, r'l, there is a burst of activity because the yetzer tov sees he's losing, so he makes an effort to help the person fight death.
does this apply to you?
jack

nederman wrote on 28 Aug 2012 01:13:


If you are coming to discredit and replace a proven system, the burden of proof is on you.




I believe you are an addict and you have found something that is working for you. I wish you continued sobriety, and I hope many will find your suggestions truly helpful.

I don't think Nederman has found recovery yet but maybe a good start. Why is this any of my business I don't know... The belief that cognitive therapy "must" be the answer, well, this is just another form of musterbation...

don't forget to tip your waiter, i'm back next thursday.

Edge, that was really good - "Musterbation". I think that sheds much light on a lot of things about us. Oy, why "must" I have everything under my control, Why can't I just "let go and let G-D"?

Chaim

;D

It means that you have not taken your first step yet. You have used the technique called surrender, but the first step is to make up your mind that your life has become unmanageable. When you are flying high your life feels manageable, even great, and you tell yourself that your addiction is negligible.

It was easier for my friend in SA who used to molest 10-year old girls.

Another way to say it: you are having trouble maintaining your motivation.

And what about your sponsor? What did he say when you called him, before you lusted?

No, because I don't claim that the 12-step program doesn't work, just that having done both I like cognitive therapy better. And there are a lot of problems with the 12-step program in a Jewish context, a lot of tough questions, but I don't have to come onto those because there's a huge number of people on this forum who knows them better than I do. But even more importantly, arguments have almost no value, the goal is sobriety.

ontheedgeman wrote on 28 Aug 2012 14:46:


You may be right.

What I like about cognitive therapy is that it is compatible with the Mesillas Yesharim. Note how Rabbi Luzzatto never mentions surrender. Instead he says that this world is compared to the darkness. In other words, the yetzer hara is only deception, nothing more. Intensify the men's labors, so they won't think.

So it's okay for me to believe that this really is THE answer because it's actually the Torah, of which there is only one.

I was amused by your use of the word musterbation. The term was coined by Albert Ellis to mean what depressed people tell themselves "I should be learning" or whatever. Rather than helping them get off their behind this paralyzes you.

nederman wrote on 29 Aug 2012 02:32:


Thanks, Nederman. I like that. Seems like you hit the nail on the head.

Ok. I've thought and watched myself a bit more, I think the issue may be more than not being "unmanagable", I really think that getting to excited about myself is a hard-core trigger which must be avoided (before it comes) or "davened" (when he crashes uninvited) like all other triggers.

By the way, this whole surrender/powerless/davening thing is simply amazing . Countless times in the past 2 months I've had that burning feeling that I simply must act out or look at that creature on the bus. I tell myself and Hashem that yes it's true I must listen to this temptation as much as I need to breath, even if I force myself to hold back it's just like holding my breath and eventually it'll all come pouring out (a lot more and stronger than if I wouldn't have held it to begin with). So what can I do? Nothing. Except to ask and beg Hashem to take this away just for the next few minutes, I really don't want it, if he stays I'll have to give in, but if You send him away I'll have a bit of a reprieve... And it works, it's simply amazing.

Now sometimes it bothers me, is it really true that little me can live such a miracle every day, that Hashem is really changing me whenever I ask Him to. I think the question is a mistake. Hey, I'm a Jew and my Code of Life is the Torah and by it I percieve what is "true" and what is "false", and the Torah says not to masturbate or look at pretty women (except my wife when proper), and if the way to do it is by living every moment in Hashem's grace, then that is 100% the solemn truth. I have 613 mitzvos to do, truth is doing them, false is not doing them.

It may be that I should just say even simpler of course Hashem does miracles all the time (נסים נסתרים), but for me the above was an insight.

Was yesterday clean? I don't remember.
Will tommorow be clean? I don't care.
Is today clean? I hope so.

ChaimCharlie wrote on 04 Sep 2012 07:58:

This. Definitely.