i never understood this...does anyone have a reason why frum girls dress so not tznius? now im not talking about the modern girls who grew up not knowing any better. im talking the regular flatbush woman who just wear the tightest clothes in the world and show off everything of theirs.

what are they thinking . . . ? i want other men to look? this is comfortable?
i mean they forsure know men will look...do they not care? do they want it? do they know their causing men to sin . . .?

i live in a community where alot of frum young woman are walking around all day alot of them not tznius...and it used to be i stared them down so much they forsure realized. some of them just looked back at me and some didnt. BH i dont stare not half as much. but i realized ever since i cut down on staring at them...they just got sooo much less tznius.

i could keep on going about this but ill stop here

im sorry if I wrote anything too explicit…pls tell me and in future ill try not to be [Moderator's note: I think I took out the explicit parts for the most part].

if anyone has some clarity on this it will greatly be appreciated

dear happyjew,
may we all be zoche to fulfill your name, and let us say Amen!
once upon a time there was a guy on the forum. Bardichev. who has since left (sniffle, sniffle)
[s]he used to say[/s] הוא היה אומר
"She may be a problem, but she isn't my problem"
it's not my responsibility to clean up the minefields in the Falkland Islands
or to protect the whales
or to singlehandedly stop global warming
or to make sure Obama was not born in Mauritania
so too, it is not my business why Mrs. Yenta Kuchleffel is wearing whatever she is wearing

i am susceptible to the same indignation you expressed and wonder about it too at times. but it seems important for many reasons to remember the quote above. just move along. keep on trucking.
in 99% of cases there are no nefarious intentions with the way she dresses. it's just peer pressure. she does not mean to signal to any and all males with hailing distance "please come do you-know-what!"
thanks for the reminder
wishing you much success and happiness
zs

i hear you and anything i write or any other questions i ask youll just say shes not my problem...and i understand that. BUT when they are 5 feet in front of me sitting down like . . . i mean do they like it when their husbands look at other women? well thats what they are doing to me!!

I know what you mean.
I have this urge to make a big sign that says "Look Here !!!" with arrows
and hang it around the neck of people like that.
and then say to them "do you realize that this is what you are doing?!"
another urge is to walk around with a full length mirror
with a sign attached to it that says
"do you realize what you look like?"

Happy Jew,

I'll lay it to you straight buddy, I know exactly what you are talking about but alas, this is the generation and the shmutz-filled world we live in.

Regretfully, women and especially Frum women, will dress less and less modest as the years go on. I think the best thing for all of us is to find our path and our way of overcoming our urges in the real world that we live in. With Hashem's help, we will find it and overcome.

I think its in our best interest to focus on ourselve's other than on other people. The way Frum women dress, walk or sit my friend, we cannot change, but what we look at and how we look at it can be changed, with hard work and determination.

God luck and be strong.

Joe

Hey, I understand the pain of seing a really pretty woman dressed like that. So I avoid it as much as possible. Not for the mitzvah, but for my own good. I believe that is far more choviv to Hashem than if I fooled myself by trying to do it 'for the kedusha'. If you were really concerned at all about the principle of the thing instead of only resenting them for wronging you (which I agree they are), then I suggest that you'd feel at least a little sorry for these misguided women,...and you would daven hard for them.

Our prayers for other people, especially for our fellow Jews, is not just reserved for the tzaddikim among them. Hashem wants us to daven for the resho'im, and for the misguided - unless you really know that they are intentionally trying to ruin others and purposely cause others to sin to Hashem. Even those trying to tempt others to have sex with them are not in this category - they are just misguided idiots.

If we have no pity for the resho'im and for the misguided women out there, then we obviously do not really believe Hashem loves us and cares for us. For many of us have repeatedly lusted and fantasized our brains out, used the images of live and 2-dimensional women, had sex with ourselves numerous times (that is, masturbated), followed women in supermarkets and on roads, stared into private windows, lied to our loved ones and faked our identity in chatrooms, and in many cases done far worse...there are quite a few members of GYE who have been to prostitutes and had affairs with women and some with other men , too, etc... So. Why should we expect Hashem to care about us, at all? Maybe He is as disgusted with us as we are of these 'shiksas'. If not, then we must think G-d is a real bleeding heart liberal or something. If so, we are in deep trouble. We have a very twisted and broken concept of Hashem. No wonder we can't get hold of recovery!

Rav Yaakov Koppel, a great mekubal of the 1700's suggests we beg Hashem to influence, assist, and then accept the resho'im in Teshuvah sheleima, and us among them.

Maybe you disagree completely with all this - that's cool and I respect that. I am not here to argue 'an opinion'. But if you are tired of resenting and are ready to drop the complaints and be freed, and are already obsessing about these women, anyway...then I suggest a far better alternative:

Daven for them every time you see them instead of staring at them. Give up the sweet image of that face or body and think for a second - I really do want You to help them, Tatty. Well up within your heart ahavas Yisroel for the Jewsih women, at least. Love them, as Hashem instructs you to (v'Ohavta l'rei'acho kamocha goes on scantily clad Jewish women, too, last I checked). And put it into action by davening (with words) for their own well-being, for their sake alone - not ours.

And - provided that you really do want to let the lust-fest go - you will probably get a gift. You will discover that you are freed of the lusting for at least the present. That's gotta be good enough for right now. And in the words of an SA old-timer named Jesse, "I can pray for them longer than they can stand there."

its just such a crazy world out there.

REMOVED BY MODERATOR

sorry if this is too much

YES, IT WAS

We're all with you Happy Jew. I don't think we are the only generation since the Creation or since the Mabul or since Matan Torah or even since the Rambam that has to deal with anti-tznius women but we are the first to deal with sexting which is what your last post was about. Everyone sends inappropriate photos of themselves by email and IM not only politicians and celebrities. The only answer I know is "it's not my problem", it really isn't.


Hatzlocho

This question is answered by the rambam who writes"teva hoadom lihyos nimshach achar sevivo".as our society at large continues its descent into the depths of tuma our tzibbur is affected by this as well.I think its the vilna gaon that writes that the same taava a man has for bitul torah a woman has that in the area of tznius.that doesnt mean we accept it. This is just the nisayon of our generation. For us here we need to avoid all triggers and yes we should daven for them. But the bigger problem is that the educational system for our children is broke.if a girl 2 yrs after seminary is looking like a shiksa then we've got problems. Its not just the educational system but our own homes that dont show passion yiddishkeit. I listen alot to reb shimshon pincus zatzal. I am jealous of the passion that he had for hashem vtoraso.

Genug shoin
Gut shabbos to all
Maalin

happyjew wrote on 01 Jun 2012 08:42:


Whatever all that was, happyjew...did you read what I wrote to you? I am sharing what I and many other people I know personally do every day and it works for us. This is not a trick in some book somewhere, nor is it some righteous exhortation or finger-wagging from some sefer on yir'as Shomayim. It is tried and tested recovery work. And the question remains:

Do we insist upon chewing and chewing on these pretty women's images - while whining about them (with our mouths full)? Or are you really sick and tired of them and ready to give the next one up, asking Him to take care of them? This is not a trick to "fix you" but a new path to slow growth into maturity and sobriety, happyjew.

We all know the first derech does not work - hey, it is why you are here and it is what we all do - The criticism and whining is not a commentary on the problem 'out there', but rather it is the problem itself in us - it is the way we lust after them, and the proof of our obsession with the power of their bodies over us! By whining about them we use them more and more!

Is this gibberish to you, or is it a thing you can start to use on the next hottie you see out there? You are not alone either way...been in both camps...

Love,

Dov

happyjew wrote on 31 May 2012 20:20:





There are two ways to look at this. One is to say, it's terrible and look she is causing me to be nimsach after her. The other is to say, the teva is to be nimsach after those who surround me. So maybe I better be more careful who and where I hang out with. If I get sent a non-tzniyus picture, I can let those around me that I'm not interested in that and please don't send it to me in the future.

One of the keys to recovery is to try and avoid self-pity. Life is much harder when the world is out to get you. When we step up to the plate and admit that we are part of the problem and if I want to be sober, I have to look inward and see what I can do to make sure that I'm not part of the problem, you will live a much happier life, and you'll be a happy jew. Much hatzlacha.

By the way Dov thanks for those wonderful posts.

MAALIN wrote on 01 Jun 2012 12:17:


i know many girls who after being IN seminary for two years just dont change...i mean they change for 2-3 months after sem because theyre on a high...but after that...back to the "real" world of gashmius and who can dress less tznius and make more money.
oh and these girls didnt go to such bad sems either...


where do u get his shiurim from?

thanks guys

Girls? What are girls?

MAALIN wrote on 01 Jun 2012 12:17:


Kenst mich krossen?

I once heard a CD of R' Pincus zt"l. He dramatically illustrated how a little Chassidishe kid who needs to cross a big road full of vehicles whizzing by, goes to a grownup and says (in Yiddish) "Kenst mich krossen (can you cross me)?", and the man hold's his hand and crosses him. Although the kid is fightened to cross on his own - and rightfully so - but he has full trust that the grownup will get him across safely.

So too, we need to rely on Hashem whenever we have an issue that we find hard to solve on our own. We need to ask him, "Kenst mich krossen?" He will surely hold our hand and help us get across the dangerous road, whatever it may be.

I think this is an important lesson for all of us who can't seem to cross the road on our own.

MT

Machshovo wrote on 04 Jun 2012 16:58:



so why give us the hard road to cross? just so we should ask Him for help to cross?