Whoa. Where did I say anything about the 12 step approach in that post? All I said was that being lectured by Hashem is not going to help me. Exactly like Klal Yisroel, according to the Gemorah in Megillah 14a. It says there that 48 neviim - that's all the big ones - could not do what sufferring did. All I am saying is that I am no better than Klal Yisroel, that's all.

If you stopped because of the exhortations in the Torah and Chaza"l, that's great! I would never view such a tahara as lacking!

It's just that there are so many (I think most) people who are well-meaning and deeply sincere, yet keep masturbating and suffering because they are locked into a glorious, romantic religious struggle...when in reality all they are is sick in the head. They simply ned to suffer enough to take the medicine they really need. Just like Klal Yisroel in that gemorah.

Sadly, they hear a new twist on the old exhortations and issurim and then they expect to be finally clean from now on as a result of some 'new wisdom' or chizzuk...grabbing onto straws they say, "now I got it!" Then someone tells them that it matters little if they succeed - what Hashem loves is their struggle to win. Now is that fair to the wife who has to live with a suffering husband who takes his religious frustrations out on her and the kids - and we ususally do, though we do not want to see it. Is it fair to the wives who get a venereal disease? I know a few such wives personally. Why are they OK to be sacrificed on the mizbeyach of their husbands 'Teshuvah' and 'avodas Hashem'? He tells himself he is meshaneh mipnei haShalom, or to helpo him do a better Teshuvah, but in reality, all along he is living a secret double life just because of his shame to admit to her (or anybody else for that matter) the whole unvarnished truth about himself.

So, no, I wrote nothing at all about the 12 steps, and am not railing against "the Torah approach". I am talking about people here, not about the Torah, based on my (limited) personal experience with them.

If chizzuk works for anybody I'd be the last to dissuade them. And I know some such people! But it's gotta really be working or else I say it's just a kardom lachpor bo.

@Dov

1. You didn't mention anything in your post to which I responded about the 12 step approach, but you did in other posts.

2. Personally, I've tried ALL of the approaches (i.e. 12 Step, Mussar, R' Nachman's Tikkun, Philosophy, Psychology, etc.) and failed at/with ALL of them! (At least I'm consistent). Maybe what happened to me a couple of months ago was that I'd either become so totally saturated with porn to the point that it finally lost some of its appeal, or else I'd hit rock bottom, existentially speaking, where I honestly just didn't care any more -- about much of anything -- and in a way that was somehow different than at any other time in my life when I'd hit an existential abyss. Or a combination of the two.

And somewhere along the way I think that what happed was I just didn't even feel like summoning up the energy to turn on the laptop to watch porn. Somewhere in my psyche, I knew it was pointless, despite referring to it as my "cyber harem", and the more that awareness developed (i.e. of the pointlessness of it), the more logical and rational it all became to me to just stop. I wasn't at the point then to put an all out stop, but it was like a snowball starting out at the top of a mountain. As I began to focus more and more on my life and my spirituality and my addictive personality, I was able to get a totally different perspective than at any other point in my life. It started with R'/Dr. Twerski's book, and went from there. It felt like for the first time in ages, I was on top of the wheel, spiritually speaking, rather than being crushed beneath the wheel. So that's why I joined and wrote my original post, in the event that someone else was going through something similar. It sounds to me as if you're coming from a much different place, and that what I'm writing about is causing you to feel unsettled. I could be wrong about that; I'm just reading between the lines of your posts, is all.

3. As far as you feeling that I'm hitting you over the head with Torah morals...I'm not even Shomer Shabbos. I used to be, and I'm definitely Jewish, but I'd be the last person in the world to hit you with any Torah guilt trip. That's why the book that ontheedgeman recommended was so helpful to me. It's so much more open ended and loving than, say, the classic: Mesillas Yeaharim -- a book that I've tried to read now for the past 30 years, and I've never gotten past page 30. (Not that that's a good thing, just that it's the truth. And I was much more of a Derech HaShem man, myself.) So if I came across that way it was totally unintentional. The current issue I have with what you're saying has to do with the concept of powerlessness, a key ingredient of all 12 step programs. I'm really coming from an almost totally opposite place on that one point. For me, it's a matter of choice, and it's a choice I do, in fact, have power over. But I don't want to get bogged down in debating different approaches.

skaybaltimore wrote on 28 May 2012 17:39:

skaybaltimore wrote on 31 May 2012 20:52:

skaybaltimore wrote on 11 Jun 2012 16:49:

So far, one would think we're dealing with one of our own, a frum Yid with a fondness for porn and masturbation. He believes in G-d, keeps Toiro and Mitzvois, tried all kinds of approaches, and finally found one that is working for him. He is happy to share it with other Tora-observant Jews as something that is different from 12-step program, but is intrinsically Jewish and Toiro-based.
Well, here comes an eye-opener:


You don't say...
So "I tried all the approaches" is a little misleading...You haven't gotten past page 30 in Mussor...You've stopped keeping Shabbos...You bailed out of the 12-step program...(I wonder how far you got there, or with "R' Nachman's Tikkun, Philosophy, Psychology, etc"). I think it's dishonest to call your approach "a more Torah-oriented approach".
It seems to be misrepresenting the truth when you state: "The "Big Book" folks really didn't have the 2,000 years of wisdom in their world view that someone attached to the Torah has. Hence, my decision to join this site. " I think the inference is that you are "attached to Torah" and therefore you advocate a Tora-based approach that you're sharing with other Tora-attached Jews.
I think, knowing that you're not Shomer Shabbos would be an important disclosure to make when advocating "2 key elements" in solving this issue: "1. We must at all times link all of our efforts to the clear acknowledgment of Hashem as the One, True Creator. 2. Using a standard Mussar technique, the more detail we can include in our visualization(s), the more effective they will be. "
So I think that when I called you out as having an agenda I was correct. I think you are interested in other frum Yidden following your path, and perhaps eventually going off the derech after you and your made-up system of bizzare beliefs. And you cleverly disguise this by quoting from holy books and insterting "Hashem" every so often in your writing.

So of course, life will tell how long it'll take before the porn laptop comes on, and maybe you finally did find a working solution, but my money is on porn. I bet that it won't be too long, either, before you jump off this wagon, as well, and move on to something else, all the while guiltily (or not) masturbating to internet porn.

This, of course, doesn't mean that I don't love you as a Jew and a fellow human being. I wish you the best of health, both physical and spiritual. And of course you're free to choose whatever you think is the right thing to do, as you always have been. I just wish you were a little more honest, that's all.
Mottel

1. Oh, understood.

2. I tried a lot of things, too. When you say you tried the 12 steps do you mean that you actually went to meetings and took a sponsor who shared with you how he worked the 12 steps and worked them, or do you mean you read them and tried to use them on your own? If you must assume I am judgemental, then that's your loss, not mine. All I hope for is understanding and communication of experience with a fellow man and Jew - not to convince you of anything, and certainly not to gain license to say, "Well, if that's all you did, then you didn't really try the 12 steps."

I am not (thank-G-d) unsettled by your writing. But I do care, and I do not judge you, and I am living a miracle of G-d's Grace ('Chesed' if you prefer) as of this very day. So I share.

If you have suggestions for me, I'll accept them!

3. I never felt you were hitting me over the head with anything. I was concerned that you were hitting yourself over the head with them. But I was wrong. That's all. You and I are both comfortable in our paths and life is going well a day at a time, thank-G-d.

Finally, I must tell you something that may seem funny to you:

You say you have an issue with the 'powerlessness' idea. Guess what? I do too! I'd never, ever accept it. It is a big challenge for not just you, but for me, and for everybody I meet with a sex addiction or habit, or whatever-you-want-to-call-the-thing-rotting-their-lives-from-the-inside. And it probably should be.

The only reason I do accept it is because I was forced to under the weight of my own 22 years of personal struggling experience....at the age of 35.

It is not a belief that I have, at all. It's just a fact that is proven to me beyond my choice.

Funny. As long as accepting my inability to manage my own life was left up to my choice, I played the game, theorized and tried, cried, etc. Once my will was finally broken, I no longer had the intellectual choice to keep pretending.

To use a funny Mahara"l: The Gemorah states that G-d held a mountain over the heads of the Jewish people and said He'd crush them if they would not accept the Torah. Mahara"l writes that when it says He threatened to kill them, it means that He made it so clear to them that the Torah is true, that they felt they had no choice left but to accept it. To them it became as irrevocable as choosing life vs death - not really a matter of choice. When faced with death, we do basically anything to stay alive, even things we would normally be very ashamed to do...like walk into an AA or SA meeting, for example . Same with accepting the Torah, for them. Not really a 'choice'.

And the Mahara"l says G-d did this even though they said "na'aseh v'nishmah"! He wanted Torah to be something a person sees he really does not have a choice but to accept. Cuz it's G-d's mind. His Will is not ours to accept or deny. We can play and pretend with philosophy to 'determine' whether G-d exists...!? But He knows that He does. Game over.

I would never have come up with the detestable idea of powerlessness, and it is far, far out of my 'comfort zone'. Besides, it's such a religious can of worms. But the fact remains that I did not stop even though I wanted to for at least 15 years. How many things does a guy have to try - and how much of his life needs to get flushed down the toilet while he tries - until he finally is brought to his knees and is broken in the face of his problem....and then before His G-d? I went to at least 5 rabonim and three shrinks, got married, read books about sexual addiction and 12 steps, read Twerski, talked to R/Dr Twerski on the phone, admitted it to my wife, very nearly died behind the wheel, used mikvah, Tikkun Klali, etc, etc....am I to wait as one guy out there says, "Oh! but you did not try Submerged Hypnotic Infusion Therapy!"? (woops!) :o : Or that I need to drink only Wheatgrass Tea?

It's not respectable, true. But I admit that I failed and am a failure at winning the battle with lust. I am a failure at running my own life. When I try my very best to run my life, it revolves around really good sex, or not having really good sex. And my problem is not sex! It is living life on Life's terms, period. I am a failure at that and need a miracle to succeed. So far, it's going OK as long as I take my 'medicine'...

Hey, guess what? The Torah teaches us that after 120 you and I will both be losers: we will lose the battle against death. Heck, we cannot even keep our bodies, families, and lives! We are losers in that sense. Here, too, I am one of G-d's (favorite) losers, and He loves me and gives me this great, growing life that is way beyond anything I could have dreamned up! Anytime you'd like, I'd tell you (only on the phone, cuz of all the self-identifying info involved) all the ways my life - our life - has improved since I was given the gift of sobriety for a day. And it's been over 15 years of days, so far.

And He did all that for a decent man man who is also a pervert and loser (me). Obviously He loves, loves, loves me and always offered the help - and I was finally willing to take it from Him when I masturbated enough and got into enough trouble.

And I'd also be happy to detail to you exactly how my sexual acting out brought me to have to conclude that I just had no more choice. I do not do that on GYE, either, cuz of anonymity.

@Dov

As I said, we're coming from different places, and I respect the fact that what works for you is working for you, and may it continue to work for you!!

@ obormottel

There are lots of options in terms of how I choose to respond to you. From that group, I'll simply select: "Peace".

skaybaltimore wrote on 11 Jun 2012 20:32:


Sure, sure.

Peace is nice enough for me, thanks.