obormottel wrote on 31 May 2012 15:49:
Cool. The point of these boards is to help each other fight the addiction, not each other.

Dear skaybaltimore,

First off, more power to you, chaver!

Please help me, here. The only goal I am aware I have on this forum is to share my experience - as you are trying to do. If I percieve potential complications in some people using ideas someone shares - that work for them - I will describe my concerns. I mean not to villify at all, rather to report from the field. My assumption is that between you and me and others who pipe in, the safest way to apply our ideas will eventually be made clear, with Hashem's help. Rather than trying to "show the path", I hope that what I post continues to be a way Hashem uses me to help some sex addicts like us open up and share, clarify what works and how to use it. As the AA's taught me, "we are not experts on anything - least of all addiction" - but we have experience, strength and hope to share.

One thing He has given me to see is that my lust to see my own recovery as a 'journey of understanding and education', was actually one of the things that kept me drunk. For years and years (while acting out my lust) I studied the Yetzer Hora, read great (and some not so great) Breslov material, and psych journals in religious Jewish magazines, etc...I even tried the 12 steps (privately, of course!) as presented by Dr. Pat Carnes in his books. I tried getting married - and that made my addiction grow by leaps and bounds, as most addicts discover. With all my best efforts, I ended up sicker and more self-obsessed (and made my wife miserable, too). And for me and many addicts I have met, any self-obsession is part of the problem, not the soultion.

It seems to me that becoming convinced that I 'finally got it' was the very last thing I needed. The terrific pain of my continued failure eventually led to more emotional self-immolation, including more medicating by sexual acting out and more self-obsession - working ever more desperately to figure this thing out. So in the long run, the smarter I got, the drunker I got. But for you, it sems to be working well.

In the end, after being in recovery and sober for a year or two, I came to agree with what the AA's wrote (and italicized) on page 39 of AA,

I could never have seen or admitted that to myself while I was "working on quitting." Only after a year or two of sobriety and following the directions of the sober addicts I was with did I come to see my limitations. So my experience in recovery was more like na'aseh venishmah - I needed to be sober first and get recovery and insight later. The experience that is working for you is more like nishmah vena'aseh - and of course that's great to share. The important thing is that it is working for you - which is why I probed quite plainly in order for me to learn from you, not teach you.

Is sharing all that with you being aggresive? If it is, I will listen - and then please, please suggest for me a way to say it in a non-agressive manner so that I can work my 12th step better. Or tell me to keep my thoughts and experience more to myself and I will try that in some manner and see how it goes.

- Dov

PS. If you'd like to speak to me directly so I really understand better, you can have my phone number whenever you want.

wow this thread took an entirely different turn than I expected! I love it!

First, a prayer, that my words not be hurtful or arrogant to anyone, and if so, it's inadvertent and they should roll of your skin like dust on a new car.

I've always considered myself the master of humility, second to Moshe Rabeinu perhaps... nothing bothered me, I never really get angry except for totally legitimate reasons where people say the wrong thing to me and I have to defend Gcd's honour (not mine, nope). Especially my wife's comments. Otherwise my humility knows no bounds and I'm the paragon of humility and everyone should learn to be humble from me.

Then someone suggested to me that, if I do have explosive outbursts when people "cross the line", maybe my humility isn't what I think it is. So lately, I've been thinking (danger sign!) maybe a humble person wouldn't actually flip out when his wife crosses the line. Maybe, if I was truly humble, I'd actually just accept that her comments hurt me, and be mindful of the pain she has caused, watch it, follow it, etc... and apologize if what brought on her criticism was caused by something I did (or failed to do).

The real test for how my programme is working or not working is how my ego responds when Gcd sends His messengers to test me. Whether it's a post that challenges me on my own recovery, or something a family member says to me - the real test of whether I'm letting go of my resentments, turning everything over to Gcd, practising what I preach, how I respond and how I watch feelings.

Dov saw something in your posts that most people would never see. I'm jealous. How can someone as great as me and as humble as me, be surpassed in wisdom by Dov? oh well. The point is - maybe Dov was aggressive, maybe not... It's neither here nor there.

If you have been clean for 24 hours, that's great. Most people on this site are great at quitting for 24 hours. They've done it many many times. Just not in a row.

Part of recovery is not acting out; the other part, as Dov outlines, is much more.

One more time...I bet he is doing quite well, actually. And I am not that humble. Ask my wife.

@Dov

Regarding your 10:12 P.M. post:

Judging from the quote from AA that you state was very helpful to you, I think we are clearly coming at this from completely different angles.

Aside from that particular quote, I also tend to see the whole "how many days have you been clean?" routine differently as well. It works for some people, and if it works for you that's great. That's the area in which I felt you were pressing aggressively; it had nothing to do with the content of what you were sharing. I don't believe in "jinxes", so it's not that I believed that by saying that the approach I've recently adopted was working for me for x number of days everything would collapse. It was more along the line of thinking that I'd already stated clearly, although not in AA or SA terminology, that it was working for me, and that time would tell how LONG it would continue to work. I was satisfied that I'd presented my situation in a clear and honest way.

The fact that you have certain reservations about how recovery is supposed to work , and questioned the validity of the approach I've chosen, is coming from you. Specifically, if you believe that self-knowledge has nothing to do with recovery, then that's your belief, but it's definitely NOT mine, especially considering that a major part of "ourselves" is the very breath of Hashem that he breathed into us!! And that's one of the big differences that I see between a typical 12-step approach and a more Torah-oriented approach. The "Big Book" folks really didn't have the 2,000 years of wisdom in their world view that someone attached to the Torah has. Hence, my decision to join this site. I've been a part of 12 step programs over the years, and while they have validity for a lot of people, that approach is clearly not the only approach when it comes to dealing with addiction(s), and it's not the course I choose for myself. But I certainly wish you success in your approach, as I'm sure you do in mine.

The way I see it...a human being is an amazing hybrid of both body and soul. In short, the bodily senses are the means through which the soul "sees" the material world. And images -- especially erotic, pornographic images -- are among the most powerful, influential images imaginable. The WAY in which the soul is affected by such images is inestimable. And without a true understanding of how this process works, so that it can function properly, as Hashem intended, things constantly run amok. For me, proper understanding is essential, so that the resulting actions are balanced, and not by-products of addictive choices. This is strongly related to tuning into our conscience, something all addicts are adept at tuning out. By slowing things down through meditation (really, nothing more than quiet listening), one is able to more clearly hear one's own conscience, which then comes to help a person on the brink of making a choice between an addictive and a non-addictive action.

@ontheedgeman

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say, especially the reference to what Dov did (or did not) see in my posts. What I clearly acknowledge is that self-deception is a major part of continued addiction(s), and that it's possible to get lost in self-discovery when it gets tangled up with self-deception, as it often does. But that's a risk I'm willing to take at this stage, since more traditional approaches have not worked for me in the past. And I'm certainly not suggesting that someone follow my path; I'm simply stating the path I've chosen for myself.

skaybaltimore wrote on 31 May 2012 20:52:


Appreciated well all that you wrote except one part: I never questioned your recovery nor the validity of your approach. All I did was ask you if it was "working" in the way I understand "working". But you clarified that we see things differently and that's cool. Hey, you wrote that you recognize the limitations of laying it all on self-analysis, so it's not like I was coming off the moon....or Pittsburgh, for that matter.

Finally, just for the fun of showing more common ground between us than you may realize, the quote from AA was definitely not helpful to me to get sober! I would never have understood or appreciated it until I was already sober for a year or two. I got sober simply because I could no longer afford to act out my lust any more, not because of any inspiration, respiration, or whatever . Of course, I was still a sitting duck because my character defects made life unbearable for me, but didn't know that at the time...

The line from AA was only helpful in keeping me sober after that fear-based sobriety started to run out. Just like other things, such as lust. The lust I feel at times, helps keep me sober more than anything else I know. It's a gift from Hashem that keeps me honest, reminds me of my limitations, and allows me to resume working my steps when I start to spiritually coast. Lust never helped me before - it was always the enemy. Now, it's the 'burr under the saddle', as are my pain, fears, pride, and resentments. Kind of ironic, no? Mishlei: birtzos Hashem darkei ish, gam oivov yashlim itto. Beautiful.

Hey, have a nice day in Baltimore, or wherever your sky is! (what's a skay?)

@Dov

Thanks for the further clarification of your position. It's always a shame to see things break down due to semantics.

And "skay" is for my initials -- s. k. (hence, "skay").

Well...so far, so good.

I think my reluctance to post positive progress updates has something to do with a sense/concern that the yetzer is now pushing me from behind, rather than confronting me face-to-face. There's always an uneasiness accompanying "success" in this battle -- sort of like envisioning the yetzer smiling from behind, as if it's thinking: "Now this schlemiel thinks he's got me under control. Man...is HE in for a surprise".

But regardless...progress is progress, especially in this area. The thing I've found most helpful -- along with all of the readings, meditations, and visualizations -- has been to simply not turn on the porn laptop. I have 3 laptops, and 1 desktop, but only 1 (an old, very outdated IBM laptop) of the 4 has ever been used for porn. I simply have not turned it on. Maybe all the years of relying on porn for "inspiration" has resulted in me now being able to more easily avoid masturbation without porn.

To be continued...

skaybaltimore wrote on 06 Jun 2012 23:08:


That's why we daven
והסר שטן מלפננו ומאחרנו

Hatzlacha

MT

Machshovo wrote on 07 Jun 2012 18:04:
Exactly.

Yeah. I usually do better without the porn.

ontheedgeman wrote on 29 May 2012 13:18:
I just got the book over the weekend and was able to read the intro. Great suggestion. Thanks.

dov wrote on 10 Jun 2012 05:39:
Obviously. And yet, that's the real paradox/irony -- I simply hadn't taken the time to realize that it was that simple -- to simply not turn on the laptop. I had been running on some sort of autopilot reasoning that automatically turned on the laptop for the pleasure I (erroneously) believed it would bring. And while it would be false to say that it brought no pleasure, the type of pleasure it brought was momentary, not lasting.

And THAT'S where the meditation and visualization came in. It gave me the "break" I needed to reexamine the habits that had been running unattended all these years, as if they'd taken on a life of their own. And almost immediately upon seeking a new perspective, the tape stopped playing -- as if a spell had been broken.

So as I've said before...at least for the moment, the power that seemed to me just a few weeks ago to be insurmountable, now seems almost foolish by contrast. But I'm acutely aware that this is by no means the end of the struggle. It IS, however, quite an amazing beginning.

There is no situation in my life - no matter how bad it could ever be, R"l - that cannot be made even worse, by me acting out on top of it. None. It is never, ever worth it for me to act out.

I believe that 100% with every fiber of my being based on - not the Torah, thank G-d - but upon my own bitter experience as a powerless and hopeless addict.

Since this is primarily a disease of forgetting, may I remember that simple fact all day today, Amein.

dov wrote on 11 Jun 2012 04:47:
Whatever works for you, then that's what you should stick with. I think, however, that we're approaching this from very different perspectives. And that's why I stated at the beginning of this thread that my way of tackling this might possibly be helpful for people for whom your approach was NOT working. So it's not a matter of pitting one against the other; it's merely acknowledging that the 12-step approach is not necessarily the only way to achieve sobriety.