ontheedgeman wrote on 30 May 2012 01:17:


Believe it or not, I've been reading the book for over a year and I'm only just past the halfway point (it's the kind of book that I need to read slowly in order to internalize). I did hear from someone else that the end of the book is nonsense, but I didn't know it's that bad. I would still recommend reading up until that point because the ideas he brings are really powerful and in the bigger picture, go hand in hand with Torah ideas. His main theme in the book is living in the present, which is the same as the "one day at a time" idea that addicts always quote.

I would not recommend throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

skaybaltimore wrote on 29 May 2012 20:28:

You got it, exactly!

ontheedgeman wrote on 30 May 2012 01:17:

personally, i believe in kishkeh
(even though today they are made from plastic)

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 30 May 2012 14:11:


so you mean I'm not supposed to eat that plastic part?

I ALWAYS wondered about that plastic part too!!!

KidusHashem wrote on 30 May 2012 10:12:


What if it's an engraved imaged of baby Yishke? Then we can throw it out with the bathwater, no?

Ongoing update:

One of the goals of focused meditation/visualization, for me, is to uncover (vs discover) my underlying, often deeply obscured, sense of purposefulness in this world. Somewhat ironically, given the “goal-oriented/materialistic” nature of this current world, the true vocation of the Children of Israel is actually to “be”, rather than to “do”. “Be a light unto the nations”. As such, our very essence is often perverted by the hostile societies in which we live. It takes time to uncover our true sense of purposefulness. If/when we don't, a sense of pointlessness, emptiness, and despair ensues, and those feelings lay the dangerous groundwork for falling so far, we no longer care about our actions or the resultant consequences of our actions.

It takes time and effort and skill to quiet all the external distractions and get in touch with what our true soul – the living spirt of Hashem – is endlessly saying to us. That living spirit will NEVER lead us in the wrong direction, but we must first make the choice to listen to it in order to hear it. Once we DO make that choice, however, we begin to be filled up with proper inspiration that WANTS to help us achieve our true purpose in life. Then, other distractions lose a lot of their power. And the more we focus our energies and attention in the proper direction, the more our lives become rich with awe, instead of impoverished by distractions and empty seductions. But this must be done with vigilance; it’s not a one time “AH HA!” experience. It should become a daily habit, along with the other daily and lifelong guidelines set out for the Children Of Israel. Mastering the mind – even one aspect of the mind – enables the ability and the confidence to then use this newly acquired prowess to master undesirable habits that engage both the mind and the body.

And that’s directly related to the second goal: the ability to actively choose which thought(s) or image(s) I WANT to be in my mind at any given time, rather than passively allow the auto slide show to run unattended. Because no two thoughts can co-exist simultaneously in the mind. As a result, the stronger the mind becomes at focusing on ONE aspect or image – the image we’ve chosen, rather than the random images that flow through our mind on an almost second by second basis – the better able we are to control and choose our thoughts and resultant actions based upon those thoughts.

I believe the source of every known malady and/or imbalance in this world stems from the feeling of separateness from The Creator. And it’s not simply a matter of finite beings trying to comprehend/behold an Infinite Creator, since The Creator is in us, and we are in The Creator, by virtue of the soul breathed into us by The Creator. It’s a matter of us blocking the connection via choices that clog the channels, rather than clearing them. So the point of the meditations and visualizations is to clear the channels.

All great, but for me there is always the sincere question:

Yes, yes....but are you still masturbating or not?

As you said, only time will tell. Well, 'time' is now.

Please let me know if you find that an insulting thing to ask. If not, great - I will answer, and you can answer, and we can compare notes if you like. Then we may each grow from the other's experience with living sober.

But if you do find the question insulting, then personally i'd start to worry...

As a recovering pervert, I would never be insulted by another addict sincerely asking me about my latest sex or lust problems, or asking me if I am sober. It is a pleasure to know the truth about myself and good for me (though not always a pleasure!) to share it with others!

Ask me, ask me.....

dov wrote on 31 May 2012 04:11:
I don't find your question insulting at all, but I do find the way you chose to ask it rather imbalanced. As any addict knows, or should know, today's answer is about as relevant as yesterday's news. Saying "yes" or "no" today is less relevant, as far as I'm concerned, than acknowledging that this is an ongoing struggle for the rest of our lives. And as I stated in my first post, this approach is clearly not for everyone, and that would appear to apply to you.

I'm seeking a strategy that will work long term, so the fact that this approach has helped me since the day I started it to avoid both porn and masturbation is all well and good, but not nearly as important to me as whether or not it will help in the long run. As such, the short term answer seems to be much more important to you than it is to me. And frankly...I question your attacking, imbalanced style. Is it more to satisfy your own needs, or to help those who post on this board? It was evident from your first post, and at that point I chose to avoid your obvious aggressiveness. I no longer feel the need to not confront you on that point.

The reason I believe that the key lies in strengthening our dimyon--imagination has to do with the fact that that's where and how those who control populations manipulate the images that control us. There's a very powerful book -- Eros And Magic In The Renaissance -- written by Ioan Culiano, a Romanian professor of comparative religions at the University of Chicago, in which he traced back the intentional manipulation of images, especially erotic images, through decades of history, and how they were used to "brainwash"/control mass groups of people. And he concluded that it's through images that we are subtly controlled by those who understand both the power of images and the ways in which to use them to control people (i.e. Madison Avenue, P.R., Sony, etc.). Porn is all about images, and unless or until we understand how to protect ourselves from the manipulation of these images, and cleanse ourselves and replace them with purity vs smut, it's like chopping at the branches and the leaves, rather than getting to the roots. If you get that, you get that; if you don't, you don't. And I'm certainly not accountable to you or anyone else to provide anything other than posts that are within the TOS and the spirit of what this board is about -- to help those of us struggling with this most mighty addiction. You're not my scorekeeper; Hashem is.

It seems to me that the reason you found Dov's posts aggressive and imbalanced is because, despite your verbosity and displays of erudition, you have an agenda here, and you've been called on it.
The question whether you're still using your drug of choice is a fair one. In any addiction recovery program, only those whose sobriety have any traction, are given an ear.
We can theorize and come up with any kind of conspiracies, including "governments manipulate populations with erotic images" but so long as we keep masturbating to internet porn, it is utterly meaningless.
So if your (I daresay) unorthodox approach is working for you in a way that it stops you from compulsively reaching for your junk when confronted with erotic media, good for you and thanks for sharing what works for you.
But if today you still struggle, no amount of quotes from Romanian professor, or use of post-graduate vocabulary will convince me to take you seriously.
And isn't there a meditation technique we can use when we feel irked by someone?
Please understand, friend, that dissertations on theoretical topics are cute, but proven recovery record is golden when choosing a path to follow.
With respect to your "gemoro kop",
Mottel

obormottel wrote on 31 May 2012 14:18:
You're rather presumptuous, aren't you? The biggest presumptions evident from your post are contained in your statement: "But if you still struggle, no amount of quotes from Romanian professor, or use of post-graduate vocabulary will convince me to take you seriously". There are actually two presumptions contained in that one statement.

1. (the most important one) That somehow, this addiction is NOT an ONGOING struggle EVERY day. That shows that you lack even the most fundamental understanding of addiction, and the way to deal with addiction -- ONE DAY AT A TIME. An addict is never "cured"; we only find suitable, effective ways of dealing with our addiction(s).
2. You presume that I'm concerned with whether or not you take me seriously. I'm not. I am concerned with whether or not I take this addiction seriously, which I do. I am also concerned with sharing my own experience(s) in an attempt to both give back to others what works for me, as well as listening to what works for others. What I'm not concerned about is engaging in an on-going battle of wills, since all that does is deplete the energy needed to combat this most powerful addiction.

You also presume that I have some sort of an "agenda". That's merely a projection from inside of yourself, most likely the result of the fact that my approach differs from yours, and the only way you have of reconciling those differences is to somehow demonize my approach. It's a classic, typical response for some people who can't otherwise deal with people who have different approaches/ideas than their own. My only agenda is to battle with my addiction(s), and share those battles and struggles with others who share the same battles and struggles. If my experiences and input don't work for you, then simply ignore them and move on. If there existed ONE WAY to deal with this addiction, we'd all have found it, used it, and wouldn't be here. After all, the Holy Temple had 12 gates, because it exemplified the reality that there IS NOT only one way to approach Hashem.

Now, without knowing you from Adam, and at the risk of being presumptuous myself, what you MIGHT actually be saying is that what I'm engaging in is a form of "mental masturbation". And in that sense, at least at this beginning stage, that might very well be exactly what I'm doing. The thing is...there is a distinct difference between mental masturbation and physical masturbation to begin with, and depending on one's intent, it's entirely possible that as long as the goal is to rise above physical masturbation, this temporary substitute could very well lead to a life free of this addiction. So, to recap...if the intent is ONLY to substitute one for the other, nothing much will have been achieved, other than the obvious -- no more spilling of seed. However, if the intent is to actually replace physical masturbation with something much more substantial, which IS my long term goal, then this beginning/intermediary step could very well place me on the road a long term solution, since masturbation is the lowest, most common level of sensory gratification. My hope is that once I discover, nurture, and form a new habit, masturbation will no longer hold the appeal it currently holds. Or at least, I'll have a choice of which form of gratification to choose, and I'll logically choose the form that holds the highest, not the lowest, form of fulfillment.

Finally, as a point of clarification, my posts are in no way intended to be "preaching". Quite the opposite; my posts are my way of working out and clarifying what's going on with my addiction, and what works and doesn't work for me in my own personal attempt to deal with it. It's a sharing, not a preaching. And so far, I've found both this approach, and the sharing of this approach, to be the most helpful one I've ever attempted. And in the event that my path crosses anyone else's path, and provides a light that shines into a place that was heretofore dark, great. If not, not. And as I said before, if it doesn't work for you, then simply ignore it. There's no reason for you to feel intimidated by either my approach or my language.

When I said "struggle" I meant regularly use pornography and masturbation. Of course, struggling with "urges" is a daily ordeal for me. Notice how you repeatedly refuse to say if your approach helps you to stay sober today.
My only presumption about you is that you suffer from verbal diarrhea.
Noone's demonzing you, and no amount of capitalization and defensive rhetoric will convince a reader of this.
Again, if it works for you, great. Just do say: does it?

obormottel wrote on 31 May 2012 15:43:
Apparently our posts crossed paths, and now you do see where I stated that, in fact, my approach, for me, has been quite helpful.

Apparently you edited your post while I was replying.
Thank you for your honesty.
I will take masturbation-free "today" instead of any promise of masturbation-free tomorrow.