I'm glad you found that helpful.

ANewStart wrote on 23 May 2012 22:11:


Amen!

But, how do you plan to do this?

--Elyah

It seems to me that the way I will be able to live at ease in mind, body, and soul, is to just focus on acting in ways that are conducive to my own personal growth. I will just have to accept the world for what it is and do my part clean up my neck of the woods.

ANewStart wrote on 24 May 2012 21:22:


That is excellent, as far as attitude goes.

But what actions can you take to make it a practical part of your life?

--Elyah

Hope you had a meaningful Yom Tov.

I suppose that an action I can make toward my personal growth could be for instance always being aware of my actions at the present moment, thus enabling me to really be in charge of every situation. I've found that sometimes I just act automatically, and such behavior is usually unproductive. If I could be aware of the individual significance of every moment, then I could at least be in control and I would be able to put into action the attitude I mentioned above.

That's good, but I think it's still heavily in the awareness, not quite in the action stage yet.

What sort of situations come up that are difficult for you?
Then, how do you usually react in those situations?
Then, how could you act differently in those same situations? What can you DO to either improve the situation or to change it?

--Elyah

Hey NewStart, I'm in a similar boat as you... my BT boat departed later than yours but I've been holding steady for around 6 years. Loving Hashem and frumkite, and it's not the paradise island I thought it was going to be! I too dreamt of a world of perfection, where observant Jews do not have flaws and I could trust them full heartedly with everything. But as you noted, disappointment always comes, sometimes even from great Rabbis who have significant character flaws!

I don't have an answer for this, but just thought I'd share my disappointment in terms of what I "expected" from the religious world. I'm beginning to slowly accept that the problem lies less out there, and more within my own heart and my own ego. My expectations of "what Gcd would do for me", in a way, pushed out Gcd from my heart! Now as I read and try to absorb the lessons, I realize, I have to open my heart to the way things are, the way things have been created by, yes, H", flaws and all. So there is no Tzaddik that I can look up to who will heal me with an amulet. :-( That's okay too.

In terms of "tasting the eye candy" and morality, your point is a good one and yet useless to an extent. Yes, from a pure perspective a beautiful woman is a beautiful creation of H", there's nothing immoral with her beauty and appreciating the wondrous works of Hashem. Doesn't the Torah describe our matriarch as "beautiful" or pleasing to the eyes. And there are words in Tanach, Shir HaShirim, that really extol the beauty of a woman/women.

Indeed, Sefardim allow women to kiss the hand of a Chacham. How could that be! That is a seemingly sexual act! The Torah (according to their mesorah) seems to recognize the ability of (in that case) women to see beyond the man and purely connect to the holiness of the Chacham's knowledge. So it's not a sex act to kiss the Chacham's hand, rather, it's purely a way of honoring H".

And yet the point is "useless" because most of us (honestly) don't look at women like this, and if you consider the matter honestly, it's possible you may look at a woman with a bit of "acquisition" mindset, in terms of desiring her and wanting to plant seeds within her. If not, if you really only see Gcd through her, and have no lust whatsoever, then that is totally holy and keep on trucking! You are in the 0.000001% percentile and you might be that hidden Tzadik!

The Vilna Gaon was a tremendous tzaddik and he was bothered by the sound of women's shoes outside his window.


And we are never going to know which Scottish kitchen to buy because the thread was deleted in the interests of [s]Kedusha[/s] - I mean kedusha.

And R' Elya Lopian ZTZ"L, when he was "90 and blind in one eye", told a bochur in no uncertain terms that if he was able to not be affected by women, he needs a doctor, because "I still feel the Y"H stirring inside me."
It would seem to be the opposite, as Blind Beggar said: The greater the person's madreiga, the MORE bothers him, not less! The sound of women's shoes! It is said that one of the Mirrer Roshei Yeshiva ZTZ"L of Brooklyn was heard muttering to himself after Rosh Hashona davening, "V'lo Sosuru etc.", because of the ladies waiting across the street, average age being 60. A real tahor I was privileged to have as a roomate confided in me one night that he was having bad thoughts because he saw some shoes in a shopping window. (I know he meant this, for other reasons.) Unfortunately, my mind has been desensitized by what I looked at, but whenever I work on myself, the sensitivity comes back, and EVERYTHING about a girl bothers me.
This is me. I can't speak for anyone else.

Thanks for the replies. I understand the points you all made clearly. For me at least I can see a deeper rooted problem in the question I posed. I have at the one hand a very positive self-image. I have always been liked by the kids at school and my colleagues. My family has always shown pride in me for my moral and academic accomplishments. But on the inside, I hate myself more than any enemy I've ever faced.

To put it in a few words how I feel, I think something that I saw once on a sticker sums it up:
"If you think you can cause me pain, you're wrong. Because whatever you'll think of doing to me, I've already done to myself much harder...."

If anyone's read my first post, I kind of went through my whole story. Since I've been very little, starting at age 3, I've been pretty sexual---fantasizing, mz"l, pornography, chat rooms, etc. I was and am a very good kid, so I never really got into trouble--but I've hated myself for as long as I can remember. Since I became frum I developed an avenue to direct my self-irritation: I am despicable to Hashem, and I'm giving force to kelippah, I disappoint the Rebbe in every way, etc. etc.

So friends, I asked what's wrong with admiring a beautiful woman....which I believe that I would be able to appreciate.... but I know that it's really the frustration I have with looking at the mirror that makes me want to look at women.

Elyah, I don't really know what actions I can take to better myself, I can only think of trying to adopt the positive attitude I mentioned earlier.

Thanks for the support and care.

wow, well you can see that people's wisdom on this board anticipate the issue well in advance... it seems the question you were kind of asking was "Why a I a bad person if I want to stare at women", and the board was unanimous in their declaration that YOU ARE NOT BAD, and the Great Tzadikim were not bad for having these urges... what made them great was the hishtadlus they made in returning to whatever they knew deep down was the proper path. and we all know it, if we look deep enough. that still, small, inner voice... it's always telling us what to do, the right, thing, but it's quiet and I try to drown it out...

ANewStart wrote on 29 May 2012 22:57:


Maybe let's put it this way:

When you have negative attitudes, what do you do as a result?

What would you do differently if you had positive attitudes?

Now, I think we have to be aware of both. If I change my attitude but I stick with my acting the way I habitually do (as a result of my negative attitudes), then I won't get very far. I have to make sure that, as a result of my positive attitude, I follow through by behaving--or acting--more positively.

On the other hand, it is often easier to control my actions than my attitudes. If I catch myself responding the way I usually do as a result of my negative attitudes, I can alter my behavior as if I had a positive attitude.

Does that make any sense?

--Elyah

From my understanding negative behavior and attitude go hand in hand. For me what's worked for the past few days is just focusing on happiness and working on positive self esteem. I've stayed shy from negative behaviors and attitudes and tried to adapt a non judgmental mentality mainly towards myself and others, and automatically my actions are affected. I no longer need the things that seem to fill in that void.