I tho ught already, I would start to understand your posts, reb Dov, but no, that was derech aray. hm.




Did I ask anything? (chutz mi

Oh, sorry for being unclear, RT. I was referring to your klerring whether Chaza"l matir'd the farmer being mamesh oisek in the mating of the animals....then TZ pointed out that this is exactly what the heter is about....then you klerred further if this applies today (I assume you mean because we are now in a lower madreigo). And all I meant was, "is all this klerring because you personally have a lemayseh shayloh right now?" I doubt you are a farmer and really want to know what to do with your cows.

If that assumption is correct, then I relate to this type of investigation as "Toirah hee v'lilmod ani tzorich!" So I brought an example of how that concept - although true - is very limited in its application....like R' Akivah and that very strange mayseh (I assume you know the mayseh I am referring to) that no posek (nor any frum yid) today would ever think to matir c"v.

So I was suggesting you in my 'funny' way, to consider dropping that line of questioning.

You see, before I finally started being sober, I became a 'resident expert' on the pratei halachos of sexual behaviors that were assur and mutar between husband and wife. It was learning, right? ....and it was also complete, horrible poison. I believe it was also completely assur for me to do, as well. It turned some really nice Torah sheb'al Peh into porn. Because it sucked my mind into the issue. Yes, I eventually came to see that it was all just plain porn for me. And for me, it still is, I assume. Porn in Hebrew, Yiddish or even mit a shtra'amle is still just porn. And I have learned that I am not alone in this among you fine b'nei Torah. Many have horveh'd in that particular aspect of Halocha and mussar. Nu. We tried, each in his own way, to escape. No escape, even into Halocha.

And I further rationalized that my study was actually gonna help me because R' Yisroel Salanter wrote that one of the best ways to be saved from weakness in a certain area is to learn the Torah about that area very well. Well, I guess he meant Seder Nashim in general...not halachos of sex with women! Kind of obvious, no? Gevalt, if only I had the '5th chelek' of Shulchan Aruch a bit earlier...called common sense.

Nahh, I just wasn't ready to hear it anyway. I just wanted the excitement of reading the shaylos utshuvos that would matir the derails I wanted!

B'H those curious days are over (for today).

I love you RT (and MT) and wish you ah Giteh voch!! (and everyone else here)

Just for the record:
Ben Azai went to watch Reb Akiva in the bathroom, Reb Kahana went under Rav's bed so that he can learn the proper way to have marital relations. [berachos 62]

It was not meant as a question.




I saw this line and thought "what?? Did I ever say, anybody could do it nowadays? I never did!" to express this my thoughts I said that I bichlal doubt if not only DJ's and Co. (who are exposed to women) but even this farmers would not be allowed to do this things, because, like you said, the yeridas hadoyros and low madrega.



Yep, I had this issue as well. I am not doing it (learning this things) anymore.

And yea, reb Dov, I love you too

and, TZ:

dov wrote on 10 Aug 2012 20:41:


ah, nevermind. peace.

RT wrote on 12 Aug 2012 11:16:

That's what I was saying, that it's wrong [unless Dov has a source for it in the Zohar ;)]

baruch shekevanti. that's why I wrote "ah, nevermind."

Just saw this...
alexeliezer wrote on 12 Aug 2012 12:32:


From the mind of a bochur, I just can't compute this.
Eliezer, are you sure if you had told her earlier, you would still actually BE MARRIED? Surely it takes time for the trust to build up until she won't just demand a divorce when she hears it?
Before you ask, as a bochur in shidduchim, I was quite aware that it wasn't right to just get married with a problem like this...
So, when a shidduch got serious, I started telling her that I had a few things in my past... Books, videos... I made it sound like it was all behind me for quite some time...
She broke it off.
And, I know someone who was told by a do-gooder about her husband's past, and she made them get a divorce (and they even have a kid!).
To top it off, I was told by my Rebbe not to say a word about my problems, current and past, forever, or at least many years.

I would love to be open and honest with my wife, but I just don't see any way to do it!!!

Confused,
Meir

Let's separate issues.

I spent most of my marriage in active addiction, then was solidly sober before I told my wife. I felt she had a right to know why she was so confused about me all these years. She told me that she actually thought she was crazy, because I was overall such a great guy but would occasionally do or say some very insensitive things, like I had a sick dark side. Once I told her, everything became clear and we are getting ever closer.

The fact that some do-gooder told the wife of someone who may have still been in active addiction, and this lead to divorce, is not at all what I'm suggesting. I think the differences here are now obvious.

As a bochur in recovery, assuming you're solidly in recovery, my opinion is that you are not obligated to tell your date anything unless she asks directly. A bochur solidly in recovery has the opportunity to start a new life with his new wife and leave this baggage behind. No need to ever tell her if you don't want to. Now if he slips and falls during the marriage, that's another story. How's that for motivation?!

Any clearer?

Rev Eli, what would you consider "solid in recovery". 6 month? 1 year? 2 years (oy.) ?

It's probably different for different people, personalities, situations, and exactly what the addict was doing. Assuming a typical P&M addiction, my opinion is 6 months. That's long enough to know it's real. If an addict was into live stuff, at least a year. Just my opinion based on nothing but my opinion.

R' Wolbe wrote in his booklet for Chasanim that one should tell his wife everything about his past, and then added in parantheses "except for חטאת נעורים", which if I understand correctly is reffering to us.

Again, there are no absolute rules, but this would probably be a good simple way at starting off.

I bet he was talking about the stuff frim the past, nit that the guy was still doing it in the shower. My guess.

And yes, this topic is very sensitive and easy to mess up. See, if the shoe were really on the other foot, things would be much more painful and many of us would simply not be able to live with it, especially for bad stuff involving relationships in chatrooms and cams, etc. Horrifying and devastating.

Also, wives are very different with what they want to know and what they do not want to know.

Of course, the only way to figure that out is BY ASKING THEM. Instead we all go along and feed them scraps and bones on a need-to-know-basis! Ha. Our comfort level is of course the only real factor that carries any weight then. I did that for about 14-15 years. (was sober for the last 4) Till it stopped working.

Sensitivity and a real close relationship with other recovering people (couples) is necessary here.

I happen to have met over 200 chareidi couples recovering with this sex addiction stuff, so far. Many are doing well. But all are doing better with guidance and experience for the husband (from the guys) and for the wife (from the wives).

And siyata diShmaya.

- Dov

Thanks for the responses. Very clear.

It seems the consensus was, having qualified in Rav Twersky's opinion, one should avoid telling the spouse (or future spouse) until the recovery itself will not work without it (and one hopes the relationship develops up to that point). For more info, see other recovering couples.
One not solidly in recovery is a whole different story- he shouldn't be getting married, correct? And one who is already married just doesn't have the right to fall back on his wife for a crutch... Until he is solidly in recovery, at least. For more info, see qualified marriage counselor.

And, unfortunately, I personally am forced to qualify this whole thing with "unless the Rebbe says so". My Rebbe knows me extremely well, I haven't left out anything (I think) in addiction and in recovery, and he has experience dealing with addicts. He told me to go ahead, and he has never lead me wrong in my life.
Oh well. I know some will feel he isn't qualified enough... My addiction never went past p** and m**, no live stuff. But I'm not out long enough to qualify for Eliezer's length of time (I know, he said it was just an opinion), yet my Rebbe said to go ahead.
The married person was probably not in recovery, this is true.
Eliezer, the date I mentioned DID ask directly, as a result of the Binah article about the dangers of the internet that she had read. So I answered her with a half truth of sorts, and that was enough, even though we were far enough along that the shadchan was planning the lechaim.

Please correct, comment, complain, care, or smile.
Meir

I just wanted to add....
All these people who were involved in physical relationships, some of which who have just joined GYE...
I was not.
But I am not better. I would be in deeper muck if I was offered the same temptations. There isn't a doubt in my mind.
I think they call that hitting bottom while still on top. At least one aspect of it.

My 2 cents about the lost shidduch --
You didn't marry her because she is not your bashert, it's that simple. She dropped you perhaps 'cause a mistake, it's her loss.

All the best!!!!!!