I used to think that when I had questions--especially those philosophical questions that really ate away at me and seemed like nothing short of direct prophecy from G-d could possibly resolve them, could not be answered by anyone short of the Gadol Hador (because I thought it was unrealistic to expect direct prophecy).

I have realized, though, that I'm not so big that I need such a big person so resolve my issues. It's not like I'm Rebbi Akiva Eiger or something; Despite as much as I have learned, I'm really still an ignoramus. Am I really a big expert in all of sha's and poskim, sifrei mussar, sifrei kaballa, sifrei chassidus (and even common sense) that my questions really, objectively, are all that sophisticated (though they truly seem extremely important and urgent and complex to me)?

To the contrary, I have at times taken my questions to Gedolim, either in person or painstakingly writing out long and detailed letters (with self-addressed stamped envelope). The result? With all due respect, I got pre-fab answers that weren't really all that helpful. These Gedolim, as great as they are, really know nothing about me and my circumstances, and even if they did, they have no relationship with me that they could really properly guide me. Also, since they don't know who I am, they can't really write anything other than the party line, for who knows what I'm going to do with their answers. Here, also, if a Gadol has little experience with addiction and the 12-steps, as great as he may be in Torah knowledge, he can't really help all that much. (Rabbi Twersky is recognized as an expert in the field of addiction, and he is also recognized as a Talmid Chacham--and he's recognized for the former and the latter far beyond the dalet-amos of GYE).

I realized I'm a little guy, and so I don't need the biggest Rav in the world to help me. I have asked extremely complicated questions to Rabbonim of lesser stature than the Gadol Hador and gotten satisfactory answers. And, when the question was beyond them, THEY are connected enough with Gedolom to pose the question to them and get an appropriate response.

But, Frumfiend, it seems like if you get an answer (either explaining Torah hashkafa or the 12-steps) from somebody less than the biggest Gadol Hador--even if the answer makes sense, you won't be satisfied. And if that's the case, what can anyone here offer you?

--Elyah

FF,
I was just pondering on the that the idea of mesorah - unique to Judaism - may be able to help you. Find a rebbe you can respect and trust in this area, and more importantly that you feel understands you, and you are linked straight to Moshe on Sinai. I've done it, it works - עשה לך רב.
הצלחה רבה
MB

Mixedup wrote on 09 Apr 2012 06:23:


FF/mixed up I feel for you. Since I think more than mixed up you are frustrated. The key to your frustration is I believe in your first post. Step One is recognizing your life is unmanageable. When you come to that recognition you will have a motivation to stop and your issues with the program will fizzle out.
I don't think I would be the first one to point out how we quickly question the halachic validity of a proven program of recovery that has been endorsed by at least some noted gedolim but have no qualms dabbling in occasional porn and masturbation which all agree is ossur.
If you truly feel your participation in the program needs the blessing of a Gadol hador then ask but I would suggest you do so only after you've decided that you need to stop and you are motivated to do so.
Much hatzlacha

Hi guys Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. My response is going to be divided into three parts. It will also be a little long.
I would like to clarify my feelings towards Rabbi Twerski and What I meant by gedolei yisrael.

It is well known that semicha today doesn't mean what it meant in the time of chazal. In the time of chazal semicha meant you knew kol hatorah kulah and you were Mishamish Gedolei yisrael until they felt that the semicha candidate himself was a gadol.

Today semicha is a just a certification that you know certain areas of torah. There is semicha on yoreh deah which covers a limited area of yoreh deah. There is also semicha for gitin and choshen mishpat. These are similar to the concept of specialties in the medical field.. A podiatrist knows almost nothing about the heart. He may be more knowledgeable than a layman be he isn't qualified in the cardiac field. To say that a podiatrist isn't a cardiac doctor isn't a putdown. In the same way to question rabbi twerski ability to rule in torah hashkafa isn't a putdown.

The ability to rule in torah hashkafa isn't something that you can get in a course. The people who have always ruled on issues of torah hashkafa have always been the Gedolei yisrael.
A gadol byisrael doesn't have to be the person that is in the newspapers. A gadol is someone who for starters has spent his life steeped in torah. Of course this isn't enough. Generally speaking even today a true adam gadol has been recognized as such by his peers. It seems quite obvious that rabbi twerski doesn't meet these qualifications.

It is well known that when Ben gurion met the Chazon Ish he asked the Chazon Ish where in the torah does it say it say that giyus habanos is yeharaig vaal yaavor. The Chazon Ish pointed to his heart and said right here..
Reb Elyashiv ruled that certain spiritual healing is avoda Zara.Many so called experts have said that they disagree. However only an expert in torah like Harav Elyashiv can rule on issues of this sort.
I may be wrong about my questions about the twelve steps but rabbi twerski although he is an expert in the twelve steps isn't an expert in torah haskafa. This is analogous to the rabbi doctor deciding on his own that a certain fertility treatment isn't a problem. He just isn't qualified.

There are three arguments that are bandied about on this forum.
The first is that how dare we sit at argue about the halachic status of the steps. They ask did you ask a rabbi about the pornography that you viewed? This argument is very silly. The gemara says someone that ate garlic should eat more garlic? This means just because you do one thing wrong doesn't mean that you should do another thing wrong.

The second argument is that we can find sources for all the steps in chazal and seforim hakedoshim. I think this argument is almost as bad as the first one. Every hashkafik issue has always been based on chazal. The question was always the application or the interpretation of chazal. Even in the the machlokes between the chasidim and misnagdim there was no issue with the truth of ivdu es hashem besimcha. The question was the stress and application of the concept. Every torah enemy today comes armed with chazal. The in turn goes back to the first point that only a true gadol can interpet chazal. The machlokes between chasidim and misnagdim wasn't taken up by every semicha toting rabbi. This was a issue of torah hashkafa that only the biggest could decide.

The steps are taken from the Oxford sect. This was a very strict christian sect. When one is using the steps he is basically using their religion minus the j man. A quick check on google will show that the prayers that we say as part of the program are church prayers.
The argument presented on gye is that the Christian religión is based on Judaism and therefore all these concepts are essential Jewish.
This argument is very faulty. Just because the Christian religion started from Jewish concepts doesn't mean that things weren't added and changed. I never heard even the most modern rabbi say that they feel a lot of commonality in Jewish and christian concepts. That statement that they took it from us, lends itself to the impression that besides the j issue the core elements of Christianity are Jewish. I don't know that much about Christianity, but I do know that how they relate to sin is very different than us. They believe that everyone is doomed to sin and needs to be saved by believe in j.. If someone is coming from such a mentality, it is very easy to accept the first three steps since they are the key elements of the Christian religion. For a jew that knows hakol biyidei shamayim chutz me yiras shamayim, which means that aperson has free will in averos and mitzvos the three firsts steps are very difficult (not impossible) to understand in the context of free will. The chazal that is quoted here that says ilmaley hakadosh Baruch he ozro lb yuchal lb, isn't understood by any classical source as intending to minimize free will.
I believe that the steps are full of universal truths. A lot of doctors feel the only way to find recovery is through the steps. Even other methods share many of the key elements of the steps. However we have to find a way to distilled out the elements that may be contrary to torah hashkofos. I don't think that we need specifically recovery through torah, but we do need recovery that isn't contrary to the torah.

FF,
I happen to agree to some of your 3 issues. But I still believe you must find a personal Rebbe and ask what he thinks, why is the Gadol Hador better than the Mishna of עשה לך רב?
I also was and am still bothered about some of tour issues, but I have found that if I break everything down and judge each thing by itself, there is much that I can take from GYE.
Thank you GYE!

Sorry if I missed something, but your post looked like one long part. Does this mean that you have two more posts on the way?

--Elyah

Dear Mixedup,

I can connect you to a few recovering sexaholics who are talmidei chachomim. Would that help you out? Or does that pasul them? How about all the frum guys I know who are in successful recovery (like me so far)...would meeting some of them help you? Let me know if you like.

I know a bit about the Oxford Movement, too, and have struggled with the ideas you bring up. Though I see the solution as rather simple and have things I'd like to respond to in your posts, there are a few things I'd need to know first, for the answer will mean nothing to you otherwise:

1- Are you absolutely certain that you are a sex or lust addict? I doubt most of the posters on GYE are addicts, and know that very few of those who enjoy porn or masturbate are addicts, either. Lots of normal people have sex struggles. So how do you see yourself, based on your track record or other self-evidence? (I am not asking for the proof - just what your own heart tells you.)

2- Are you sober now? Until we get sober and remain sober for a while, we do not even begin to see the true extent of our sick-ness. It's a blessing both ways. And the emunah-issues remain a huge priority - for those who are not yet sober. I needed to be sober for about a year and a half before I could start to see my part in my problem - till then I was "a victim" and till then, I blamed my parents, women in the street, guys in shul, my supervisor at work, wife and my G-d for much of my inner, true problems with life. Working my 4th step with my sponsor started to change that for me, be"H.
So I ask you to share what's doing in your sobriety today, if you are OK with that.

3- I, and others here, deeply respect what you are doing. So what recovery actions have you been actively taking (besides reading about AA or listening to tapes, which is all a great help to be sure!)? Even though you are obviously very serious about your recovery, if you have not been meeting other successfully recovering sick people in person yet, then that means something.

Especially if the people in the phone-meetings you are working with only know you by your "username". This means something, too. If you are using your real first name with them, speaking and sharing the truth about you with them, then that means to me that you have been taking very, very significant recovery actions. If not, then that's OK - but it means something in my experience. I'd need to relate to you to open up about the religion thing, so I ask where you are, that's all.

I am sorry - I have not read your first posts yet. But clearly you have had a lot of pain and struggle, so far. But could you please answer these questions for me so I could share my solution to the problems you bring up? If not, I respect that, too.

Hatzlocha amigo (whatever your real first name is)!!

i Thank you guys for taking the time to reply.
Here is a very condensed version of my acting out history. I am very sick I have been lusting and thinking about how to get more Porn since I was sixteen. I masturbate at least once a day. I cannot fall asleep without it. If I wake up in the middle of the night I got to do it again. The longest I have ever gone without acting out is two months.
My recovery attempt began with finding gye. I managed to go about two months without acting out. After falling I got angry at the whole thing and left for a while. I came back again and joined dovs (I will send you a pm Who I am) group and dc. I worked at it about a year. In the middle I fell a few times. As I described in my first post at some point I got tired of the whole thing and I left. I don't exactly know why I cam back.
Now that I'm back I want to make a new start on this forum, so I made a new name and referenced my old presence bremez.
Maifetz As you can see from my history I tend not to stick with things, although in real life I do manage to be alittle stable. I have had many rabeim but always eventually left them. At this point I don't think I have anyone to ask my questions. I have always looked for guidance but eventually found fault and left them. DO please write me answers. I really want to get back on. My experience with the program was wonderful. I have a different life after experiencing it. I am just stuck with my questions. The program started to change the way I viewed certain things and I felt it wasn't how Judaism sees them. The questions I posted are just the tip of the iceberg. I have much deeper issues but let's start with what I already wrote.
Thanks alot guys

Wow. You were on my call and did not have your religious shaylos satisfactoriyl answered? Were you on through the third step?

I am just surprised. Cuz we spend a bunch of time on:Does G-d Love me - and what does that really mean?; How can I love Him if He has been so mean to me?; How can I trust Him if He is doing such a poor job managing my life well till now?; What about the YH and the eitzos in Torah for fighting this?; Does (accepting His Will in) the 3rd step mean I need to be good? If yes, how good?; Is the Program Christian? Is it Jewish? Is it Torah that is saving me, or is it G-d...and is there any difference between Torah and G-d?; What does "Derech Eretz Kodmah laTorah" really mean to me, and - are goyim part of that? How can goyim by the thousands get rescued from addictions every year by worshipping 'the wrong G-d' - and how would that relate to "Torah Tavlin"?

Whatever...the bottom line is that the answer to all these shaylos comes after one has been sober a while. So stick with whatever really works for you and you'll get whatever clarity you really need to get. But first get sober.

The Brisker (one of them) met a former student in USA (I think) who dropped yiddishkeit (at least to some extent) and asked him what happenned. The guy said, "I had emunah shaylos, Rebbi!"

The Rav did not get all bent out of shape or desperate to answer a single "emunah shayloh" of the talmid. Instead, he just asked him this: "Tel me, did you have the munah shaylos first, and slowly drop your practice of Torah? Or did you slowly drop your practice off - only to discover that you had all kinds of emunah shaylos that then rendered it impossible for you to stay a self-honest frum Jew?"

Whatever the guy answered, the Rav's point was that if the skimping on Yiddishleit came first, then the "emunah shaylos" are likely just rationalizations. Yidden newly in America might so deeply and naturally desire to be like the goyim and quit yiddishkeit, that they manufacture 'issues' that make them demand 'self-honesty' and drop yiddishkeit entirely. But that usually comes as a result of starting to slack off and tasting the prikas ohl. But we think we are 'groiseh philozophs'...

Same here. Until we are sober a while, we do not even understand what's wrong with us. We think we do - so we stupidly go to the mikvah and recite things...hide from women and fight even harder against the "YH" - all the while making lust and the natural sexual power Hashem gave to women and ourselves (and also the YH, for that matter) the center of our universe! We guarantee failure - all l'Shem Shomayim.

And we look at the solutions that work for others and only see their problems.

In closing, I am not suggesting that you need to try any particular program or anything. You will need to do what you need to do, in the end. All I am saying is that the solution you crave is putting the cart before the horse.

- Dov

One night many moons ago, in the wanig moments of the Pesach seder, the Ksav Sofer posed a question to his father the Chasam Sofer. In the Chad Gadya, apperently the goat is innocent and the cat is a guilty murderer, hence the dog was justly punishing him and didn't deserve to be hit by the merciless stick. The water shouldn't have burnt the stick, so it was fair that he was dranken by the cow. The slaughterer cruelly killed the cow, was retributed by the Malach Hamaves, and then..... Hakadosh Boruch Hu unfairly killed the Malach Hamaves????? What, Hashem is on the list of the bad guys??????

The Chasam Sofer replied: this it the climax of the Hagada, here we finish learning what is true emuna. We don't believe because we understand everything, that all our questions are completely answered. Sometimes there are things we do not understand, Hashem's wisdom is infinite, ours it not. All we can be sure of is our unbroked mesorah to Matan Torah on Har Sinai where Hashem appeared in front of all of us and told every single one us: "I am your G-D who took you out frm Egyt".

Hi Chaver, I hope you find clarity and contentment soon.

Thank you tzadikim. If I wasn't acting out so much, I would have time for a longer reply. For now I am just saying thank you for your concern.

Now yer talking!

Have a nice Shabbos, and not so mixed up, too.

What would happen if my wife caught me with my hand gripping my you know what and looking at porn?
Would I lose my marriage? Probably not, My wife needs me too much.
Would it change my whole marriage? Yes. Would my wife turnbinto into a whole different person? Yes. Would she be scared to trust me about anything? Yes. Would the home be a happy home? No. Would I be happy with my life? No. Would I wish I could leave the marriage? No. Would I be able to leave the marriage? No, because then it would get out what I did.

What would happen if my daughter walked in on me?
Would I lose my marriage? Probably yes. Would I have anything to do with my daughter after that. Probably not. Would I be able to look my daughter in the face? Absolutely not. How would I feel when giving her moral instruction? I would feel like a dog. How would I feel walking her down to the chupa? Like a turd.

What would happen if my teenage son walked in on me with my pants down?
Can't think about it.

What would happen if everyone found out????

Mixedup wrote on 11 May 2012 14:02:



Concern??

What about our unconditional love??

Yes, I really do love you!




I wanna give you a hug when we meet in person....

but for now, here is a virtual hug: ((((((()))))))