Question:

If we Reproduce semen everyday (second), then how could we be motze zera Levatala? A healthy man should always have zera with which to do onah/P"URvu so why then is mstrbtn disallowed?

The simple logical answer is that every drop could have been used the right way and instead it's wasted.

Now I'll let the rest of you pile on with the sforim etc.

The reason why it's forbidden to be "Motzi Zera L'vatala" is because G-d said so.  Who told you the reason is so you should have available seed for Onah/ Peru U'revu?

ok, maskim, both good points - i think they can be condensed into:
  zera should only be used in context of biah and nothing else.

  i guess if you say that the source of mz'l is from er/onan then it was only because he didnt pregnate his wife- perhaps mashma that if you do pregnate your wife than it is ok to also be mz'l at other times, but you can still be doche this line of thinking and say that we see from er/onan that spilling seed in general is assur- no more no less.

  yasher koach

Whaaaaa?  ??? WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!  >  >  >

YOU GUYS ARE LUCKY DOV ISN'T AROUND!!!! THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY, RIGHT NOW

Hey StrugglingGuy,

This website contains loads of good commentary on the severity of the sin of wasting seed: www.briskodesh.org/

Traditional Chinese Medicine also says that the semen is the essence of man and is composed from the finest parts of the blood. When not emitted it is reabsorbed and the energy is used to revitalise and rejuvenate the body through the growth of new cells in all the organs and tissues. This corroborates the Rabbis who said that the organ of Yessod has the power to create all the other organs.

BW,

DL

Thax DL- I will look into that

TZ- I'm sorry but what is wrong with some serious philosophical questions regarding this topic? I think it's a logical, valid kasha.

Dov would've answered this site is not about ppeople who are motzi zera levatala- we're not breslov. this is about people who are ill, and the forum is for them to discuss their illness and its remedies not zera levatala and the exact issur...
I on the other hand, will answer that I did not totally understand the question, are you asking that even when the zera goes into your wife it doesn't always cause her to become pregnant and therefore should be classified as zera levatala? please clarify

ACTUALLY DON'T

the reasoning behind your first post doesn't make sense.  You could also say that, since people regenerate every generation, then it's okay to murder because people are constantly being born.  I'm not comparing MZL to murder (although some do), but your reasoning is the same.

Alternatively, perhaps you have misunderstood the word "levatala" in MZL.  If you asked a scientist whether cholov accidentally mixed into a meat dish actually achieves a state of bitul, he would look at you like you were a nutcase.  the particles are still there.

I understand the levatala in MZL as spiritual.  We are wasting/nullifying our spiritual powers of true chessed, of truly loving someone else, of transmitting true kindness.  Pirkei Avos says that a good path to follow is to see the outcomes of our actions (roeh et hanolad).  Someone engrossed in MZL might not fully appreciate all the ways in which it diminishes his power to give over his good points to others. 

TZ- the point of this site is not to bicker so I will take the high road and ignore your unwarranted aggressive comments

"edge"- I don't really see your comparison, logically. Murdering someone else involves ending the life of another person, a violation of bein adam lchavero. this is besides the fact that the person might be an accomplished person, etc. with a family, etc.

  but zera is not another person- its the potential to create a person, but that potential should continuously be there for a man (if body reproduces zera).

  I do like what you said at the end that the issur stems not necess from the biological repercussions but rather  it is the act of being motze. the concept and points that you make might make more sense when referring to a married guy- he could be having biah with wife and be motze it that way- in a giving way, etc. but instead you are looking at a foreign object- so it ends up being like adultery.

  you could use this same logic for a single guy- you need to "save your zera and the act of being motze it" for your future bashert - even many years down the line.

StrugglingGuy wrote on 28 Feb 2012 17:49:

I have some more aggressive things to say  but you're right I'll keep in check.

well even a married guy, if his wife is pregnant, then every act of intimacy is technically a "waste".  and if a married guy's wife is menopausal, it could also be a "waste".  but that's not the "spiritual response"

moreover, many rabbis are even strict about Motzei Zara in order to preserve a man's fertility, i.e. to freeze the sperm so that it CAN be used to produce babies.  Why do they forbid Motzi Zara when it's specifically for the purpose of producing life???

so this all has nothing to do with physical production of babies and successful breeding.  . 

as indicated, the waste of MZL is spiritual.  the act, the fantasies, the method, the effects...  it's self-gratification, in all kinds of worlds.

StrugglingGuy wrote on 22 Feb 2012 21:53:


Counterquestion:

For an impotent man (i.e. quality of seed), is everything and anything allowed, because it cannot ever be considered Zera Levatala, cannot produce a mamzer, etc?  Where would you draw the line?

Is it really all about "seed"?  Or might it "lead to dancing"?

living as a young unmarried man in this generation is difficult,more than in prior generations.But together with the advice on this website ,tefillah,focus on positive healthy outlets,one can cope with the challenges and even thrive

zera is a very special gift.and if to be used in the way the gift was meant to be used,whether it reproduces itself or not.

Reb Moishe as well as other Poskim talk about certain heteirim on which during intimacy with one's wife ,there are leniencies in regards to not doing any issur if there is zera levatalah during this intimacy.And that is why there is no issur of zera levatolah in regards to relations with a pregnant wife or a wife that can not have children.And in some situation , the mutual needs and connection of a husband and wife leading a normal intimate life will on occasion create a situation when there is "zera levatalah" and yet there is no issur.I am not a Posek,so do your own research,but the bottom line is that all these hetereim are only within the confines of intimacy between husband and wife.That means that Hashem gave zera as a gift of becoming a potential father and as a vehicle towards an intimate relationship between husband and wife.Hashem is telling us that any other use of zera (with of course exceptions made by poskim for health reasons or infertility testing etc etc ) is a misuse of this special gift that Hashem has given us

That does not mean anyone should be insensitive to a bochur (or even married man) who has nisyonos in regards to this.But this knowledge and internalizing of the truth of this gift can help overcome this nisoyon.We can ask Hashem to give us the strength to overcome it and to ask Him to give us the opportunity to use this gift in the way He meant us to use it .With the wife that He gives us,for the dual purpose of having children and of connecting with our own wife , the zivvug Hashem sent us or will send us soon

my understanding (my bias is I like science to be complimentory, not contradictory whenever possible) is that it has nothing to do with literally wasting seed.  If it builds up it will either be ejected via urination or in sleep.  there is no stopping that.  the problem is how it is happening.  Sex is a form of pleause that can be abused or channeled properly.  It is also a means of spiritual connection between two people that are very close.  there's plenty of discussion about this, which I am not well versed enough to comment.  By masturbating you taking the opportunity to channel this pleasure through a mitzvah that brings you close to your other half, and passing it up entirely to spend time with a toilet bowl.  I would say the only thing worse (which according to some is actually better; I disagree) would be illicit relations.  either way the enitre point of the action is entirely selfish.  in regular relations you are providing a source of pleasure for your wife, the genetic material to produce life, and tossing it away.  it's like taking a steak and eating it on wednesday so that you can fast on Shabbos; that's not what Hashem gave you these tools to do!
I havent been here in a while, and BH I've been pretty good.  but lately I'm slipping.  I spent a lot of time wondering these philosophical questions, and they are important.  but lmaisah, they arent part of recovery.  I have a lot to work on, and a more detailed post will follow, but dont let your mind prevent you from getting the help you need.