I have a question. I may not be fair but it bothers me anyways, so I want to ask.
We know that everything is found in the Torah, not just halachos and hashkafos but also the תורת הנפש. The Rambam devotes much of hilchos daaos to midos and רפואה לחולי הנפש, as well as in Moreh Nevuchim and שמונה פרקים and more. All of the greats concentrated much effort on teaching us the about the כחות הנפש, how the צלם אלהים should and shouldn't look (The Ramchal, Gr'a, R' Yisrael Salanter, etc.). And not just theory, but also fixing things that went wrong. It's all there.
What I would like to know is if and where in the works of the Rishonim or Achronim we find the concept of addiction as a illness that requires a special method of healing, different than the standard approaches that work for everyone else. True, all the 12 steps have there source, but what is the source for the source of it all, the basic attitude of addiction as a sickness? Where is Hilchos Addiction?
Please let me know what you think. 

Check out this post:  www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2893.525.  But as someone else in the forum likes to write, why is it that when it comes to acting out we don't ask whether it shtims with Yiddishkeit but now that we are trying to stop we all of the sudden become frum and need to know what the mekor is for the solution that is being offered to us.  I would suggest that you focus your energies on staying clean and when you've accomplished that you can explore all of the intricacies of Hilchos Addiction.  Much hatzlacha

mifatfait wrote on 16 Feb 2012 23:44:


I was just curious. did you go through the steps? With a sponsor? Do you understand what the steps are all about?

I did. And I still am. And the way I see it is simply this: If I myself, little old me, went through all of the Mussar Seforim that I could find, and tried all sorts of various methods of self improvement from different sources in Chazal, and after years and years I found that a particular Derech in Mussar, and working through it in a particular way, helped me to improve in the particular area where I was lacking, would I need a Haskama for that? Would somebody tell me that even though I was using tried and true methods of Chazal, since I am using them in an order never before used it is not Yashrus and Krum - even though it worked for me and made me a better Yid?

I think that is crazy!!

And so if you yourself admit that individually the steps all have sources in the Torah, and all that's bothering you is the "source for the source of it all", why is that any different than my scenario? I don't feel a source is necessary for a tried and true method of recovery that is based in chazal.

As far the addiction being a sickness, how about looking in Hilchos Avoda Zara? Bowing to idols and trusting in them sounds even crazier than what we do by objectifying women!!! And if someone was stuck in an Avoda Zara craze, wouldn't you recommend that he work to "Give himself over to G-d and pray to him that he help him overcome his defects"?

If you haven't worked the program yet - and "The Program" is the steps and not the fellowship - I strongly recommend that you do, with a sponsor who has worked them himself. Once you do, all of your questions will be answered by themselves. Try it!! I did and it is changing my life!!

P.S. If you would like to get a feel for what the steps are all about without "working them" yourself, I highly recommend you visit this site - www.xa-speakers.com and download the free mp3 series from "Joe and Charlie". It is about alcoholism, but it goes through the program and the steps in a way that applies directly to SA as well.

Hatzlocha Raba!!
Reb Yid

He guys.
It seems like the oilum is saying my question shouldn't be the focus at this poimt. I'm mekabel. but  i just want to explain, my motive was that if i would know more about the Torah perspective to addictions tht could help in internalizing the approaches, understanding always helps. But perhaps your right, now the focus is on simply staying clean one day at a time with whatever works - 'cause if it does the job the Hashem will certainly approve.
ועי' אבן שלימה סוף פרק ד' שבמלחמת היצר לא די בעצת חכמים וצריך תחבולות מעצמו, אולי רואים מזה שלא צריך להבין המקור עד הסוף וכו', ודי להבין מעצמו ומאחרים מה שמצליח אפי' בלי החכמה העמוקה.
Gut shabbos GYE, I wonder what I'll get clobbered with next week (but thats what its all about, right?)

Gut Shabbos to you as well!!
And I apologize if you felt like I "clobbered" you. I meant no harm.
But I truly do suggest that you look into working the steps with a sponsor, if you are not doing so yet. It will change your life!!

Hatzlocha!!
Reb Yid

mifatfait wrote on 17 Feb 2012 09:03:

Trying to understand it all seems noble and most of us try... until we realize that all our understanding got us nowhere!  For recovery we must be willing to humbly surrender.  Trying to "understand" is really counterproductive to "surrendering".

Understanding - puts ME in the driver's seat.
Surrendering - puts G-d in the driver's seat.

Think Naaseh V'nishma!  First surrender and recover.  Then, if you are still interested, you can think about it.

Nice quote from Even Shleimo. It answered you, didin't it?
Gut Shabbos, chaver.
Mottel

I found a Zohar in Parshas Vayechi that seems to describe that after one sins the sin runs after him and "moves into his house and lives together with him, in order to injure him." I understood it to mean that the sin takes over the person and causes him to sin and the person no longer has control over his own life. Perhaps I'll get around to writing it be'arichus on my thread in the Beis Medrash.

meanwhile I'll give you Leshoin Hazohar

I'm sorry guys, I think the steps do get involved deeply in bechira etc. The whole attitude that there are aveiros that a person isn't responsible isn't poshuter. Although rav dessert does seem to say this there are other gedolim that aren't mekabel this.
I personally would rather be a roeh zonas than be a kofer. So the argument that why are you worried now about the torah and when you masturbated you didn't care seems to be ridiculous.

Well mixed up. You are being true to your name. You are mixing me up!!
I'm sorry, but i don't have a clue what you are talking about!!
Please explain yourself.
Thanks.

Look, Mixedupchaim whatever your name is [i'm mixed up].
I did a lot of research into the yediah bechira sheila, and while i have found several yishuvim [kabbalistic and simple] there is one idea that i especially liked, and it is that a person doesn't ALWAYS have bechira rather his life is a series of events orchestrated in such a way to eventually lead him to the ultimate bechira [as in avraham's tests]. It is obvious that a thirteen year old doesn't have the power of bechira that a thirty year old has. A thirty year old can [sometimes] decide that he simply doesn't want to get up in the morning! A thirteen year old can't [always] overcome his urge to search for p*rn, which leads to his becoming an addicted adult- because his purpose in this world [that's the yediah] is to be an addict and find a 12 step program and work hard until he recovers.
Makes any sense?
[for the haredim on the forum- I wear a black hat- please don't kill me]

Gentlemen, can I try to clarify mixedups feelings?
Well i guess that's an oxymoron. If I clarify it then he isnt mixed up ,is he?  ???
But seriously first of all please see my thread called "clarity please"
I will try to link it, but I'm depending on my good friend TZ who I'm sure can bring it up much easier and quicker than I can. (I must be link challenged)
[ftp=ftp://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=3525.0]www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=3525.0[/ftp]
I hope that worked.

I know Reb Yid you always told me to stop thinking so much, but I couldn't. That's not to say that I was against the 12 steps or any of the major issues that were brought up. I accepted the fact that I needed help and I was willing to do whatever it took to get better. In the end, with guidance from certain GYE experts, I decided that the steps were not necessary for me. There are people like that here on the forum. It was also made clear that what works for 12 steppers is not necessarily healthy for the others.
I dont know where mixedup is holding, but keep in mind that he may need a different approach than you.
Having said that, there is still something about figuring out how this shtims with chazal that intrigues me. It's not stopping me from doing what needs to be done, but it still bothers me. It's not so much that Im not interested in going against chazal, but i cant believe that chazal would leave us without proper protection against this malady. Thus the argument about why didnt we werent concerned about chazal before acting out is missing the point.
Now maybe I'm wrong and mixedup is not at all thinking like i was. But I think the thread that i mentioned does a good job of really dealing with the issues. Reb Yid, you will remember that you had a phenomenal piece there, that Ive gone back to many times.
and finally I will remind the chevra of something that was said many times in that thread. Remember that some people are coming from a whole different perspective and it takes time to get used to thinking this way. Have some rachmunus!

mixedup, I hope youre not. Regardless of whether this clarifies anything or not, you must jump in and do whatever it takes to get better! Let the philosophy work itself out as your getting better. Don't let it stop you from progressing.

Thank you everyone! Youre great!

No it didn't work. but here you go Gesh
Clarity Please

Also, regarding what everyone is saying about finding a source for this in Chazal- that's been niggling at the back of my mind, and while I don't have a source from Chazal- I once posted a source from a "really old sefer".

Hey Gesher! MixedUp was there, on your thread b4 he changed his name...