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yiras shamayim 16 Feb 2012 21:28 #133192

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is Yiras Shamayim enough to stop? If there was an electronic eye following me for my wife to see me it would stop me! so does i mean that i lack yiras shamayim? the answer is probably yes, if so is everything else i do daven learn trying to be mchanech my kids to yes yiras shamayim fake? probably not it would kill me if chas vsholem 1 of my kids should be doing what i do, so the answer is some where in the middle yes i have some yiras shamayim but it is not strong enough to stop me, so the right approach should be working on my yiras shamayim learning musser etc. what do you think? (btw i am clean for six days hoping to get to 90 and then continue)
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Re: yiras shamayim 16 Feb 2012 21:35 #133199

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What is your track record?  Has "adding yiras shomayim" helped you in the past?
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Re: yiras shamayim 16 Feb 2012 21:45 #133203

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Yes and No(how Jewish of me to answer this way).  For someone "normal" than yes, your proposal will probably work.  For someone addicted like me, than no, yiras shamayim is not enough and isn't even a tool used in recovery. 
How can someone tell if they are addicted?  There is a test at sa.org that may provide an answer.  You may be able to search for that test here on the forum. 
Honesty.  How "impossible" is it to stay clean?  Is it only difficult, or does it feel like a choice between death and falling?
If you think it will honestly work for you than what do you have to lose?
Hatzlacha in all things GOOD.
chaimyakov
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Re: yiras shamayim 17 Feb 2012 17:48 #133276

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chaimyakov wrote on 16 Feb 2012 21:45:

Yes and No(how Jewish of me to answer this way).  For someone "normal" than yes, your proposal will probably work.  For someone addicted like me, than no, yiras shamayim is not enough and isn't even a tool used in recovery. 
How can someone tell if they are addicted?  There is a test at sa.org that may provide an answer.  You may be able to search for that test here on the forum. 
Honesty.  How "impossible" is it to stay clean?  Is it only difficult, or does it feel like a choice between death and falling?
If you think it will honestly work for you than what do you have to lose?
Hatzlacha in all things GOOD.
chaimyakov


even for addiction if my wife would be seeing how i do it will stop me! so knowing and believing that the eibishter sees doesn't stop me! is it a lack of אמונה ח"ו?? i don't know i'm all mixed up. but can it be that all i learned in all the musser sforim אין דבר העומד לפני הרצון is not true?
gibbor i cant answer that truly because deep down i know i didn't ever give it a real chance i always left a crack in the door open find some kind of hatter. this is my first time that i am realy trying to stop (i hope its true and i am not bribed).
btw i find that tfiluh help a lot it give me a easy feeling and eases my pain.
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Re: yiras shamayim 17 Feb 2012 18:33 #133282

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trying to change wrote on 17 Feb 2012 17:48:

even for addiction if my wife would be seeing how i do it will stop me! so knowing and believing that the eibishter sees doesn't stop me! is it a lack of אמונה ח"ו?? i don't know i'm all mixed up. but can it be that all i learned in all the musser sforim אין דבר העומד לפני הרצון is not true?

As Rav Yochanan Ben Zakai blessed his students, "May your fear of heaven be equal to your fear of man". And his students asked him: "Rebbe, is that all?". And he answered: "Halevai!".

Are you greater than the students of Rav Yochanan Ben Zakai??? Don't worry about your lack of emunah.  You are in good company . As dov says, get off your truck and onto a tricycle.  First worry about "not acting out", then you can worry about measuring your yiras shomayim.

Who said that אין דבר העומד לפני הרצון means that you can do it by yourself?  Maybe it means, that if you really want to stop, you will ask someone for help. 

(BTW - that statement is not found in chazal.  It is brought in some mussar seforim and I have heard alternative explanations as to what it means.)
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Re: yiras shamayim 18 Feb 2012 18:34 #133297

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In control BSD wrote on 23 Oct 2011 13:19:

i was roaming around GYE today and i noticed one of the screen names "silent battle"  and it got me thinking. We all fall because the yetser hara convinces us that we are alone and we think no one, not even Hashem, knows what we are about to do. (as a side point, if we were to really live with the constant reality that hashem is with us, we wouldnt sin. Imagine being in the presence of a gadol hador with his full undivided attention all on you, would you even be thinking of sin?? something to think about). I couldnt have thought of a better name myself, it is a "silent battle" that each and everyone of us go through daily, with no one to talk to who can understand and really help. not to mention the embarrassment that one has to go through in telling your Rav whom respected you as a talmid and ben torah, that you have an uncontrollable, taivah related addiction. But here is where it all changes, we no longer have to suffer in silence, we no longer fight alone, together we form a battalion, a legion of soldiers that are fighting as one, all for one and one for all.
We are soldiers fighting a "milchemes hashem" and when soldiers come home from a battlefield triumphant and jubilant, they are made into heroes by there fellow comrades, this gives them the strength to stand another day. 
With all my brethren on GYE I know that i have an army of fighters behind me everyday, that will share my pain and help me heal, strengthening me to fight till the end. I dont know how i ever thought i stood a chance by myself.
Please do not underestimate the power each of us have to help others and ourselves. You can help change a life, or save a marriage by a simple word of encouragement. You are a vital piece in a jigsaw puzzle that can paint an awesome picture when put together with all the other pieces,  a picture that expresses the power of am yisrael - k' ish echad b'lev echad (a nation that is like one man with one heart) at one with ourselves, at one with each other and at one with the almighty.  much hatslacha to all. your success is my success, you will all be in my prayers. kol tov Dan


TehillimZugger wrote on 23 Oct 2011 14:52:

i have a good friend who is the son of a gadol hador (ok maybe not- he's the son of a big rebbe  ) anyway, he used to have a problem waking up in the morning, one of our friends once asked him "[his name], the rebbe comes to wake you up and yoou just ignore him?"
he answered, "suppose he's not your father, he's still the REBBE but he comes to wake you every single day, would you still have a problem ignoring him?"
i think this answers your emuna issue, think about it
?דער באשעפער לאווט מיך אייביג. וויפיל לאוו איך עהם
My Creator loves me at all times. How great is my love for him?
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Re: yiras shamayim 19 Feb 2012 05:06 #133312

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A gute voch, friend.
My two cents are as follows: would you consider going on the computer on shabbos to watch porn? If the answer is "absolutely not!" that tells us two things: 1) you have a certain degree of yiras shomaim;2) masturbating and watching porn is not a religious issue for you.
So increasing your yiras shomaim may make you a better shomer shabbos, but its a wrong prescription to treat the issue of porn addiction.
Have u read the Handbook?
Mottel
Baby steps.
If the road is pulling you down, it's a sign that you are going uphill, so just press harder on the gas!

Have a great day - unless, of course, you made other plans.
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Re: yiras shamayim 19 Feb 2012 05:56 #133320

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I would like to take a slightly different approach than most people to answering your question.

I think that theoretically, having Yiras Shamayim would help you to stop mast*****. (I would roughly define Yiras Shamayim as a tangible relationship with G-D).
The problem is that Yiras Shamayim is not born overnight by reading a few paragraphs of Chovas Halevavos or Shaarei Teshuva. It is born from many months of learning, but mostly practicing, character change, performance of Mitzvos and learning Torah. The combination of all of the above leads one to building a solid relationship with the Almighty.
The thing is, can a wife expect to build a relationship with her husband while she cheats on him? Even if she washes the dishes, raises his children and does everything else right, her betrayal of her husband is usurping and undermining the fundamentals of the relationship! Even if she wants to stop cheating and find favor in the eyes of her husband, it will take her a long time to do so, all the while scrupulously showing him her devotion and love.

The same is true with us. Trying to build up your Yiras Shamayim on your own will most likely be futile. You can go and learn mussar or chassidus, do mitzvos and learn Torah, but this will not lead to a building of your relationship with Hashem b/c you will not be able to stay sober long enough to do so. If you end up falling into lust while you're trying to build your relationship with Him, what value does it have? What does all your service to Him mean if you're ruining the foundation of the relationship while doing these external things? You need a Rebbi and a good friend to help you get there and they need to know exactly what the issue is and they can help you through with it. I believe that that is what the 12 steps  group essentially is (co addicts and sponsors= Rebbi+Chaver). The less good options are trying the forum and 12 step calls (a step up from the forum) where you can develop relationships with people who can help you get better and change your character traits/ develop Yiras Shamayim.

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Re: yiras shamayim 20 Feb 2012 20:17 #133403

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[left]KidusHashem wrote on 19 Feb 2012 05:56:

I would like to take a slightly different approach than most people to answering your question.

I think that theoretically, having Yiras Shamayim would help you to stop mast*****. (I would roughly define Yiras Shamayim as a tangible relationship with G-D).
The problem is that Yiras Shamayim is not born overnight by reading a few paragraphs of Chovas Halevavos or Shaarei Teshuva. It is born from many months of learning, but mostly practicing, character change, performance of Mitzvos and learning Torah. The combination of all of the above leads one to building a solid relationship with the Almighty.
The thing is, can a wife expect to build a relationship with her husband while she cheats on him? Even if she washes the dishes, raises his children and does everything else right, her betrayal of her husband is usurping and undermining the fundamentals of the relationship! Even if she wants to stop cheating and find favor in the eyes of her husband, it will take her a long time to do so, all the while scrupulously showing him her devotion and love.

The same is true with us. Trying to build up your Yiras Shamayim on your own will most likely be futile. You can go and learn mussar or chassidus, do mitzvos and learn Torah, but this will not lead to a building of your relationship with Hashem b/c you will not be able to stay sober long enough to do so. If you end up falling into lust while you're trying to build your relationship with Him, what value does it have? What does all your service to Him mean if you're ruining the foundation of the relationship while doing these external things? You need a Rebbi and a good friend to help you get there and they need to know exactly what the issue is and they can help you through with it. I believe that that is what the 12 steps  group essentially is (co addicts and sponsors= Rebbi+Chaver). The less good options are trying the forum and 12 step calls (a step up from the forum) where you can develop relationships with people who can help you get better and change your character traits/ develop Yiras Shamayim.


I'll start from the end the first step of the 12 is that you can not help yourself! ok so i am not convinced that that is the case i still hope and believe that i could help myself fact i'm clean for 10 days.
I think that you have a very strong point that living with emunah does not happen over night, but falling whil working does not mean that all work that was done went down the drain (i hope i will not fall) b/c slowly slowly you get it to work for a longer time.

mottel

your point profes that i'm right i would never be mchalel shabbos but do go to all kinds of sites and m... does that mean the "masturbating and watching porn is not a religious issue for me"? or that it is not as chusiv like shabbos? so increasing my yiras shomayim will help me feel to porn like shabbes,
I am reading the hand book now.

Quote from:TehillimZugger

"suppose he's not your father, he's still the REBBE but he comes to wake you every single day, would you still have a problem ignoring him?"
i think this answers your emuna issue, think about it"

it not the same b/c if my wife or even a good friend would be watching me EVERY DAY i think i would not fall!! so i;m back to the emuna issue again.
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Re: yiras shamayim 20 Feb 2012 22:00 #133409

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gibbor120 wrote on 17 Feb 2012 18:33:

Who said that אין דבר העומד לפני הרצון means that you can do it by yourself?  Maybe it means, that if you really want to stop, you will ask someone for help. 

(BTW - that statement is not found in chazal.  It is brought in some mussar seforim.)


i don't know could be your right but i can't bring my self to go to anybody (1. i'm scared to do it. 2. i am totally embarrassed.) it will not happen anyway.
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Re: yiras shamayim 21 Feb 2012 11:43 #133432

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trying to change wrote on 20 Feb 2012 20:17:


Quote from:TehillimZugger

"suppose he's not your father, he's still the REBBE but he comes to wake you every single day, would you still have a problem ignoring him?"
i think this answers your emuna issue, think about it"

it not the same b/c if my wife or even a good friend would be watching me EVERY DAY i think i would not fall!! so i;m back to the emuna issue again.

You wouldn't if your wife were watching you before you fell, but if she walks in on you with your pants down ten times [ok, you probably wouldn't be together anymore, so let's  say it was a really really really good friend- like a fellow GYE'er ;)] you wouldn't think twice before the elevnth- what that means is that while Yiras Shomayim may have worked that first time-- you've lost you're chance to work through Yirah, now you can build up your yirah to tower of Babel proportions but it won't help, vedoik.

trying to change wrote on 20 Feb 2012 22:00:


i can't bring my self to go to anybody (1. i'm scared to do it. 2. i am totally embarrassed.) it will not happen anyway.

www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4695.msg133430#msg133430
?דער באשעפער לאווט מיך אייביג. וויפיל לאוו איך עהם
My Creator loves me at all times. How great is my love for him?
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Re: yiras shamayim 21 Feb 2012 11:56 #133437

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trying to change wrote on 16 Feb 2012 21:28:

is Yiras Shamayim enough to stop? If there was an electronic eye following me for my wife to see me it would stop me! so does i mean that i lack yiras shamayim? the answer is probably yes, if so is everything else i do daven learn trying to be mchanech my kids to yes yiras shamayim fake? probably not it would kill me if chas vsholem 1 of my kids should be doing what i do, so the answer is some where in the middle yes i have some yiras shamayim but it is not strong enough to stop me, so the right approach should be working on my yiras shamayim learning musser etc. what do you think? (btw i am clean for six days hoping to get to 90 and then continue)

allow me to pipe in here
from my experience yiras shomayim is not enough. I've tried that approach for over 30 years. Am I lacking in yiras shamayim? perhaps. I assume that there are different levels and we have to know ourselves and to function on the level that we are at. You cant hold yourself to a higher level and then berate yourself for not living up to it, if it isnt realistic for you. That's exactly how the YH plays with our brains. He tells us to do the aveira and then after the fact turns into our mashgiach and says hey! you're terrible! Where's your yiras shomayim?!
Forget that idiot! You are what you are. you want to work on yiras shamayim, go ahead. But at the same time you have to find other ways of dealing with this problem. screaming yiras shamayim and learning mussar isnt enough for us. It may be for others. As someone very wise here on the forum told me when i started, our buttons our controls are all stuck, messed up. The normal stuff doesnt work. First get unstuck, get control, and then after a while you'll be able to really focus on yiras shamayim.
I may be wrong, its just my personal opinion from my experience.
b'hatzlacha!
ישראל אע"פ שחטא ישראל הוא
If you're connected above, you won't fall down below - Reb Shlomo
ולבי חלל בקרבי
לולא האמנתי לראות בטוב ה' בארץ חיים
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