Hi Everyone,

Last couple of weeks I have not being doing so well w/my P & M addiction with strong urges and frequent falls after going 30 days clean, which for me was longest streak in a while.  I have decided to switch gear a little bit & focus on treating my depression / stress issues first and put my P & M battle on hold for now and fight it at a later point once I am doing better with depression.  I just want to hear what you guys think.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

I don't see how you could focus at all on your depression while still being under the influence of this addiction. What do you mean by "putting it on hold?" And do you have clinical depression, are you a physical danger to yourself? What kind of stress and depression are you talking about?

Well I guess it depends, are you doing stuff because you're depressed, or are you depressed because of the addiction? It can go both ways, and they both feed off of each other. So don't give up completely on this fight, even as you work on the depression. And at the same time don't get depressed over slipping/falling, instant perfection is not expected, we are only human.
Take small steps, one day at a time, and you just may find that both issues get better together.

Hatzlacha and KOT!!!!

Gevura!

Gevurah Sheb'Yesod has a good point, but I will take it a step further, be"H.

I think your idea sounds like a great one, struggler.

So many guys get all tied up in knots over their imperfection in the area of lust and its behaviors, that it becomes all they think about all day and all night. And if that keeps them clean, I'd rather not be clean at all. It is not a real life.

And to those who would honestly say it is a real life, I suspect that may be because all they see here is the 'forest' of preventing of 'the spilling of seed', and cannot see the 'trees'.  These 'trees' are real, imperfect and suferring people who need to grow up, get sane, or whatever. That is the big matter in avodas Hashem for them - while the 'spilling of seed' is the little one. My heart tells me that living life as a fruitcake - but a tahor fruitcake! - is clearly not Hashem's Will. It's an avodah that goes nowhere and is sterile. Taharah in this area is more a matter of growing up, than of "just holding on for one more day for beating the menuval!"

Pulease. Hashem has bigger plans for you than just treading water for the greater glory. I believe those who cannot stomach that are just cruel, and misguided.

Alei v'hatzlach, Struggler, and may your road of getting your head set on strainght and growing up come full circle on Hashem's schedule, so that you will again not need to turn to stupid stuff like porn and having sex with yourself. I turned to it every day for about 22 years and know your pain, as others here do, too. You are a great and beautiful growing person, and just like so many of us here, and will succeed with Hashem's help.

PS. If anyone is so inclined to take what i wrote here out of context and try to apply it to anyone who it is not appropriate feedback for, I will not be mochel them until next year's tefillah zakah, iy"H. Seriously.

Where are you holding with the depression?  Therapy, Medication?  How serious is it?  It CAN be treated, never give up.  You are not alone.  Refuah Shelamah!

Dov,

I don't understand how someone could focus on their depression while still being stooped in their addiction. Wouldn't it be like focusing on your depression while drunk on alchohol? Shouldn't it neccesitate a complete stop to the addiction first? When he said he wants to "put the addiction on hold" that doesn't sound like a complete stop.

Thanks everyone for your replies & support. I had wanted to write introduction to my struggle for a while, but when I typed it out in Word , it seem  too long and I was unsure that anyone would want to read so much, but I am going to try to do a abridge version here. I have been having problems with porn for about 8 years. At first it was not that bad, I would have a couple falls a year. Then about 3 years ago things turn to worse. At that time, I developed a huge crushed on one of my non- Jewish co-workers. I knew that I could not be with her and felt very sad about it.  I started to have my doubts about Judaism and I felt very guilty about it and I felt very depress. Also during that time, I was diagnosed with sleep disorder; I would sleep at night, but could not get any deep sleep due to lack of oxygen. This caused me to be tired all the time and had (& still have) almost daily headaches, which made me very irritated & stressed. While this was going on, I was studying for important exam for my profession, which contributed to additional stress, since I did not want to fail it & be laid off in the middle of recession. I started to use & abuse porn more often during this time and still cannot get it under control. One of the worse parts is that I did not know about this site and could not share my struggles with anyone. 

I recently went to nutritionist to try to help me with my sleeping disorder, since the standard methods to combat it are not working. During my initial appointment he made interest point, that traditional medicine tries to control the symptoms, but not tried to cure the problem and he / nutritionists by using natural vitamins will cure my problems.( I start to think that maybe by using a filter, knassing one self, it’s a way to control symptoms not curing the problem).  He did some reflexive testing & my adrenal glands are not working probably. They are responsible for stress handling and are backup system for sex hormones. He gave me some vitamins which suppose to get them back in line. (One of the problems with using vitamins it takes a while for them to help, but already seeing some improvements in stress reduction / depression). He said that one of the main things I need to try to do is to avoid stress. One of my main stress factors is struggle with lust urges (to watch or not to watch), which unfortunately now for me is a daily struggle.  I was thinking of not fighting urges for a couple months, while I am trying to repair my adrenal glands? I was unsure if anyone one had experience with fighting other issues first & deal with porn later?

Please forgive me Struggler, but:

Dear Yossi L,

I say this as a bona fide addict, not as some kind of psychobabble fan: Why do you say he is an addict? What gives you the right?

I think it is obvious that there are so many people - especially among the frum - who have been lied to that they are 'addicts', when in reality, this struggle is really not "the struggle for their lives" and a smaller matter than other things that are going on in their lives. I think it is also quite plain that the overwhelming majority of frum men who are struggle with lust, schmutz here, there, and everywhere; with the penis they see right there every time they go to the bathroom; and with their computers....are creating their own monster by making a bigger deal out of this than it should be.

Using porn is just plain stupid. Even if it would be mutar, it is just plain immature and stupid to sneak out to a bathroom and go masturbate myself until I have orgasm, pretending that I am having sex with someone who I am not. It's ridiculous. Watching porn and pretending it is happening to me (which is all there is in porn), is a lie. Pretending is for kids. Being an adult means being able to do all the real things, for real. Real life. Running to fantasy is proof that we are still babies. Plain and simple.

Having a desire is not hirhurei aveiro. Planning to use it is. Yet how many well-meaning frum guys among us shriek when they see the big bad wolf out there strutting her stuff? Oy! Tumah! Oy!....then they focus on the women as though they are some sort of attacking enemy.

Childish. Twisted avodas Hashem.

This is what makes so many guys into sex-obsessed people. It turns Teshuvah into a contest for 'reaching Teshuvah Gemurah," or "mesiras nefesh" for "kedusha v'Tahara". The insatiable lust for "Tikkun" drives them ever deeper into living in lust. It ruins so many. One cannot wrestle with a stinking dog without coming out smelling horrible.

My wife was the first one to tell me this. Unfortunately, i really was (and am) an addict.
 
And still, in recovery all I basically learned was how to avoid wrestling with lust! They never taught me how to beat it. I either give up the fight, or I die. That is what they taught me. The difference between me and some other people who hear it but do not stay sober, is that I accepted it and they still want to fight.
I know I am a loser - and they are still trying to win. You tell me, who is the loser?

Look. The last thing I want to see is for an addict to go on merrily pretending that he is not in mortal danger. But you and I do not know if this guy is an addict. And if he has been taught a false definition of the word, then neither does he! Look up the word in a dictionary. Or read SA's Whiter Book, where "The Problem" spells out exactly what being a sex and lust addict is, according to me and my friends.

Again, I do not know what is right for Struggler. But I feel that you don't know, either. And I still hold by what I wrote in the earlier post, too.

As one final point, I will venture to say that though he may not agree with some of what i write here and eslewhere, the penimiyus of what I am writing here is exactly the same penimiyus of what Bardichever (Bards here on the forum) means when he says, "Fell, Shmell". And at at the same time, as an addict, I still am aware that for me to act out my lust means to probably die. So I don't today, with Hashem's free help that I do not deserve, at all.

Hatzlocha to all of us, to have a real Succos, and do all the mitzvos properly and with geshmak!! That's what it's about, brother.

Love,

Dov

Dov,

The first thing that Mr. struggler wrote on this topic is quote"Last couple of weeks I have not being doing so well w/my P & M addiction." If struggler says he is an addict then that's what I am going to believe. I dont know Struggler or his battle at all. If he says he has an addiction then I am going to believe that he is an addict. I don't see why you would downplay his addiction or assume otherwise. If you are to questioning his addiction based on something you know that I don't then I understamd. However, if you arent completely sure that he's not an addict and he is stating that he is shouldn't your advice(or more apropiately for you would be "sharing" as opposed to advice) be based on the assumption that he is?

Yossi

I am pretty sure I am addict now. I have  urges daily, if I had just urges a couple times a year it would be something more "normal".

I wish everyone a wonderful Succos!

Dear Struggler,

Have you read SA's White Book to see what their definition of themselves as addicts is? Or AA's first step chapters, to see what they mean when they say "I'm alcoholic"?

Either will be a help, I think. You have nothing to lose. Hatzlocha rabba!

dov wrote on 11 Oct 2011 21:49:


I would add to Dov's point  (as always, please tell me if I'm misunderstanding you) that even people who acted out in real life are just as stupid - we pretended that it made us feel good, special, wanted. We turned to those relationships for comfort, instead of living real life.

As always, addict or not, I think that an important step is to realize that despite what the yetzer hora tells you, it IS possible to survive without P/M. At least for today - and today is all you need.

dov wrote on 12 Oct 2011 07:01:


Dov, thanks. I just read SA's white book introduction & I am having trouble stopping even when I want to, so guess I am an addict. I should probably read the entire thing over next couple of days. Over the Yom Tov I was thinking some more about what is the best strategy & I think it would be the best if I do not prospone the fight. Instead of trying to go for 90 days right away, I am going to build myself up slowly (3 days, 1 week, 2 weeks & etc) hopefully with time pills will kick & it will be an easier. One thing I found during my last attend to go for 90, which was very surprising for me, is that it did not become easier with time.  Hopefully this time it would work out better. 

Frankly, the 90 day thing is cute, but I don't buy into it. To me it seems that either I accept that I can live without it today, or I do not. To accept that "I can live without it for 90 days" - all that means to me is that I can wait for 90 days, then explode.

If it gets harder and harder, then there is no giving up going on, but rather just 'waiting one day at a time'. That is not what the program slogan, "One day at a time" means, at all. It means I can give it up for today, because today is all I've really got. Cuz today is all there really is. As it says in Sh'ma, Hashem is never asking us to be frum for this week - He only asks for "hayom". To put His Will on our hearts today. That is, for today, and to leave tomorrow for tomorrow. Thinking about how I will withstand the YH tomorrow is not avodas Hashem, but avodas atzmi. Having to know what's gonna be tomorrow and how it will all work out, is just more ego. It's grasping tightly onto my will and not letting go. Can't stay sober that way. That is not surrender, at all, but 'controlling it' and 'beating it'. Which is fine  - if you or I can really beat it, then we are not addicts, by definition.

And if that is the way it is, then that's perfectly fine!

As far as deciding you are an addict, I would not be so fast. There is no mitzvah to admit one is an addict...unless one sees that he or she is really sick. I suggest trying on the ideas in the book like a shirt. See how they fit. If they do not, then forget it. "It's just not you," as Jackie Mason's shrink would say (before your time).
Then keep on getting the help you need, fight, learn, and win.

But if it is, then you have some recovering friends with whom to share and grow.

In any case, medication might help you drive with all your pistons running. Who wouldn't want that advantage? I know a guy who needs meds but refuses to take them because to him it means 'losing control'...in the meantime, he is occasionally out of control anyhow. That is just self-will and the opposite of surrender. Everyone - even non-addicts - needs to surrender to the facts if they want an easier life.

Hatzlocha, whatever time shows you, go with it.

I struggle with the definition of addict myself, and dont know where I fall, so I am going to ignore that part of this conversation.  I will say that for myself P and M were at least originally a symptom of depression (hypersexuality can come with that disease) and treating that will most certainly help your problem.  However, you have to continue to work on the issue at hand as well, or it can worsen the depression.  Besides the spiritual loss of connection that comes with our disease, a fall could trigger a depressive episode.  the stress of a fight could cause you to become upset.  etc.  I think you need to work on both.  but either or is a step in the right direction, and honestly unless you are married the P and M really only affects you (my opinion) and Hashem, depression affects your life in broader terms.  just my thoughts.  bhatzlacha! shavua tov!