Treif.

(for me and many addicts who I know)

Chaza"l say k'shot atzm'cho, v'achar kach k'shot acheirim. They do not say "Do them both at the same time, a little here, a little there. Nu, why not do a little mitzvah of hocheiach tochiyach on the way?"

OK. Really what you say has a basis and is a fine derech for many people. But there is generally no place for that in the life of an addict, as far as i am concerned. Live and let live is the only way to hope to retain a shred of humility at all, for many addicts. How to actually apply that, is a fruit of real recovery and Hashem helps us do it. 

The idea of doing things to save other people from temptation at the price of my own wife's kavod is just plain dependence, in my experience. It is just plain treif for me, and is like putting a little poison on my food. It won't kill me, true. But I'd never do it.

Go see what Al-anons and S-anons do. They learn that they are not ever, ever responsible for the choices of another person, especially their husbands'. Withholding sex is never the reason their husbands 'went out', etc. Taking the blame is treif.

Better to go out there and teach guys that we and we alone are responsible for our own eyes and for keeping our zippers up. Blaming and saving are two sides of the same coin. You cannot have one without the other, on a personal level.

I am not saying that if our wives are violating the halocha we should ignore it. But I am saying that addicts need to see how the way we interact with our wives affects our humility and blaming, that's all. In the end, we will not do the right thing without Hashem's help. 

dov wrote on 14 Jul 2011 00:06:

So end result it depends on the person,
- if she is the type to care and doesn't realize then it IS a koved to tell her "kol kevod bas melech penima".
-If she is going against halacha you have to figure out a way to deal, ask a rov how do deal smartly.
-If you are a addict and by telling her your are putting blaim on women- shut up and work on yourself.

Agreed?

If a wife notices that women seem to get attention (positive or negative - but SOMETHING strong) from their husband when they're inappropriately dressed, then who can blame the wife who (subconsciously, perhaps!) dresses like that?

Like the kid who plays up to get shouted at, because he's learnt that that's how to get SOMETHING out of his parents?

Hm...

Yossi wrote on 14 Jul 2011 10:57:

if thats the case then yes, but i don't think women dress that way to get screamed at by their husbands...

Helpfyi wrote on 14 Jul 2011 12:54:


I completely and utterly agree.  In fact, I doubt that we know (or even they they know the extent of) their own inscrutable minds, and the true reason for any of it...

As a side point, I can honestly say that I know people who do things just to have fights, and be physically compromised.  And don't consciously believe that they are acting for that purpose.

People are nutty.

One thing I have found, though, is that when someone achieves a true peace within oneself, and a balance with life around him (or her), it is contagious, and spreads throughout a family.  Similarly, when one finds respect for himself, it spreads to respect for others, and then people around him start respecting themselves and others, too.  And it often works better than shouting.  However much people enjoy being shouted at.

Yossi wrote on 14 Jul 2011 13:11:

דברי פי חכם חן
וראויים הדברים למי שאמרם

Yossi wrote on 14 Jul 2011 13:11:


i couldn't agree more!

a few points. although going back to basics, your question on vacation is just another way of saying how hard it is to guard one's eyes. we must get to the stage where we can fulfil this mitzvah in our home towns and on vacation, except the latter obviously has 'more going on'.

always remember your reasons for wanting to guard your eyes. this about the positives and the consequences involved. pray especially hard during your days on vacation. learn Torah with this in mind. also play a game, for example, as you see a girl you can 'blank her'..look at anything but her (of her friends). last week when i was abroad, i would simply put my hand over my eye (as i walk passed her) pretending to scratch my head. whatever, but once she is out of your sight, do not look back and feel the satisfaction and achievement! do this a few times in a row and you are gaining a lot of strength.

nezach wrote on 17 Jul 2011 13:20:


THANKS! great tip! yeh we got side tracked but i would like to hear more tips on this! 

I also like to find something else to look at like the sky or something else that could distract me.