ontheedgeman wrote on 30 May 2011 01:53:

Sorry, I lost you here. What are you saying, please? 



Maybe I am not understanding you right here, but I will read it at face value and ask you a simple question:

Are you talking purely theoretical philosophy here? If not, then do you mean that there really is a nafka minah to you in your choices of behavior? In others words: "efshi - ella ma e'eseh, she'osrani bor'i!" actually would change your behavior and you would actually give up masturbation and looking at porn? Have you?

If you have, then why are you even here? What's the problem?

And if you have not, then whay are you concerning yourself with theoretical Jewish Values that ultimately mean nothing for you, lema'aseh?

I am not criticising you in any way, just pointing out that I never ever would have given up sweet porn and masturbation because G-d told me to. How do I know? Because I didn't give it up! So what are you talking about?

I am talking about what actually works in recovering addicts lives to live differently. That is the only thing that is of interest to me.
What are you after, chaver?

1)  You had mentioned that some recovering addicts would sooner give up their lives than resort to their previous ways (P* and M*).  I can conclude from this that, if they hear about what others are doing on this site, i.e. other addicts, they are thinking to themselves, "I would rather die than have the life of that addict."  Is that what you are saying?  Just askin'.

2)  I hear you what you are saying.  I was referring to I think the Kitzur which states clearly we should not say we are avoiding sins except because it's commanded.  But understandable, that this doesn't work for the addict...  I would counter that the reason an addict does teshuvah and doesn't want to watch P* any more is precisely because it's commanded.  He may not be able to stop, but the yearning for teshuvah is solely because we have received the Wisdom of the Holy One, through Mitzvoth and His Torah, and that is why all of us are here. 

Why do I want to stop going for massages?  Is that life really so bad?  Okay so it's expensive, but so is tzedakkah.  In fact I spend more on tzedakah than on massages (for now), but my tzedakah addiction is 'healthy'.  Why is it 'healthy'?  Cuz I'm helping others?  Well, in the massage parlors I'm helping those poor mothers with children overseas. 

My point:  the only reason we feel bad about these sins is because they are just than - sins - which were revealed to our neshamas by the Ohr Ein Sof.

Sorry for the ramble... some of this is just to give myself chizuk from acting out today.  ;-)

1- Maybe I am misreading you and misunderstood you, but if you did act out today, then why do you say you need 'chizzuk'? I doubt that you would need chizzuk...chizzuk for what? To keep going on the same path of fighting the identical losing battle with the identical tools? No. We do not need recovery to make us feel better. We need recovery to kick us in the buttock hard enough to spin our heads. We are crazy, and that is our main problem, not aveiros.

I will give you an example, chaver, in your own case. I may be wrong, but bear with me and then judge for yourself:

You came here and named your thread "the worst sin from which we cannot recover," referring to zera levatolah R"l, correct? You engaged in some lively discussuion about whether that aveiro basically ends a Jew's life, whether he can ever be saved from the aveiro he once did, and such things. OK. Fine....

Then it comes out (and your honesty is very precious) that your present concern is also over a habit of going to massage parlors. This is acting out with another woman, even if it is not sex - it is some degree of intimate contact with a real, live woman.

Do you see where I am getting here?

The zera levatolah issue is about spilling seed. To be sure, that's a problem. But by spending energy on it here and in your head right now, I feel that you are inadvertently dressing your problem in that garb. But by far and away, the elephant in the room; the overwhelmingly serious pirtzah in your very tzelem Elokim - in your Jewishness and humanity itself; is having strange women feeling you, etc. It's an entirely different beast now. A beast I am well-familiar with myself. Crossing that boundary was and is so much more powerful a poison and so very far removed from 'having an issue of zera levatolah' that I find it shocking that you still pretend to be concerned with Onanism, at all!

Yet here you are, still one with a "zera levatolah" problem. Do you see a little bit of insanity here yet? I do not doubt your sincerity at all, mind you. But you are a man in a sinking ship who is desperately crying out for Motrin for his headache. You really mean it, but are making a grave error that may cost you dearly. You, my sweet friend who I promise I love, are a bit cracked.

We all are.

I suggest you get to work on your real problem, with all your ability. Get real with yourself and others. Eventually - maybe after 3 or 4 months - you will start to taste what it is like to start getting real with Hashem. And that is not an insult, but a brocha.

2- The guys I am referring to who "would rather die than...etc" are still going to SA meetings faithfully. They still consider themselves sick people getting well. One of them is a chassidishe rebbe with a nice shul of his own and the other is a successful businessman who was in Kollel a few years before.

They would not look at the people messing up un GYE and say anything in their hearts except for, "Tatty, You know that could be me. Thank-You so much for today's sobriety! I love You!"....or something like that.
No judgement here, amigo.

Wow thanks.  Definitely food for thought.  While I didn't act out today (clean 2 weeks) I still do not believe that having another woman touch me is that big of a deal.  If you say that is a problem, I accept it, since, I am here to get better as you say, and buy into the Dov warranty that this programme works (and if not I want my money back).  ;-)

The story I tell myself is that, I am just an animal, and an animal has needs.  And so what is the big deal if a car goes in for service for optimal performance every now and then.

I know this is a bit twisted.  In fact I had a horrible dream, in which I saw this perverse "animal" behaviour as an outsider, and was totally disgusted by it.  as in, revolted.  Which is how I must feel underneath.

The other weird thing I thought is that, some women will touch me for x dollars, while some women will not touch me for any price.  How can this be?  What do these women know/believe, that money will not buy them over to do such a simple, mechanical thing??  Is it really so bad?

Anyhow I'm here to learn and work.  So onwards!

I will not comment any more about what you are saying, nor about what you believe. It is for you to have Hashem reveal the shocking truth about yourself to you in your recovery work. That is the way it works for me. It is amazing, and very unexpected. It will come to you either through pain, or through sacrifice. It will always be our choice which we will have. But the amazing enlightenment that feels so very good and changes everything for us, only comes through some degree of pain.

Hatzlocha. You are not alone.

Regarding SA: SA is not for everybody, and surely there are many here on GYE who would not relate at all to what goes on in there. But in your case based on what you are writing, I'd say that you are cracked enough to have a wonderful time there. The things you will discover about yourself there in just a few months - if you play your cards right, will be priceless. And I mean priceless. I encourage you to go, and you are one of the very few who I have said this to here on GYE in over 2 years.

If you do choose to go to SA meetings, just please consider not sharing any of your wisdom there for the first two months (even though you surely have a lot) It will be much better for you to just listen and mainly keep your mouth shut. Try to share every meeting about the unvarnished truth about yourself, not your wisdom. We lead with our weakness. And certainly do not try to be helpful to anybody else there for that time. Listen, ask questions, and follow directions for just the first two months. Consider finding a sponsor to work the steps with, if you want to.

Funny, but seriously yours,

Dov

again, thanks Dov.  You're suggestions are very helpful for me.  I'm kind of honored that you suggest SA for me, I would have never thought... much like I didn't think I was an alcoholic...  the "rock bottom" that I hit is nothing compared to that of Rory K in the White Book.  But to use his language, I see the fuse has caught fire and its moving its way down the powder keg...  I see where this can progress... it's hard to take the cotton out of my mouth and into my ears... so it goes.

If you decide to go, then go. And take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. Hatzlocha, sweet yid.

the nefesh hachaim says that torah learning is a kappora for ALL!!!!  this that you think there is no hope is the yazer horea himself!

Dear fyi,

Perhaps I am misjudging you. Just please let me know it. But I must take off my gloves. Hope this is helpful.

So when we say there is no hope, it is the YH?

Then let me ask you about Chaza"l. When they say: "Ein lanu al mi/mah lehisha'en ella al Avinu sh'baShomayim," that means even us - right? That we do not have the ability to depend on us and our power, but only on Hashem and His power....so they are 'the YH', too?

I doubt that is what you really mean, is it? Please hear me out.

I am not talking for any Yid who has a little porn habit. Others are here for that. They need chizzuk, hadrocha, and such. And they do get better!

I am talking to addicts, not to those yidden who fit nicely into the group you are trying to encourage with chizzuk and Torah. I am talking to those of us who have something wrong with us. Whether they see it clearly yet now, or not, the people I am speaking for, are sick. They eventually see this for themselves and do not need you or me to show them - Hashem does it for them.

They are the same people who have been getting advice like "Keep trying!," "Giving up is the YH!," "Hashem does not give anyone a nisayon he or she cannot overcome!," and "even if you fail, the struggle is so precious to the Ribono shel Olam!" I do not know if this is what you mean, at all, but it sounds a bit to me like that is what you mean.

Are you here on the forum because you have been healed of schmutz and masturbation for a year or so, or are you here because you still do it yourself? If you stopped for a year or so because of not giving up, then please share what you did! But I am talking to most people who are still struggling and have not had such success yet. They get chizzuk to keep doing what they are trying so hard to do and crying real tears for...

And all along they are hiding in a smelly corner of their minds and hating themselves - and occasionally secretly hiding in a smelly corner of the velt and taking their porn and enjoying their zera levatola...with terrible burden of guilt that just builds and builds.
But 'the struggle is such a mitzvah' - so, why should they ever stop struggling and really get the help they need to learn how to live without the schmutz? Why? The struggle is precious - once they "win" - what will be precious then? How will life look without this mess, we wonder?

You offer them nothing more than a double jeopardy, and label it "Ratzon Hashem":

1- Stop masturbating because it's good to stop....yet
2- keep doing what you are doing (that is failing miserably so far) because it is good, too.

There is no way out for these people your way. But really, why should there be? It's precious...no? And they can do it...no?

And they are encouraged to believe that they are precious and beloved to Hashem - just by virtue of the fact that they are struggling the precious struggle. In the meantime, what do their wives say, who are being betrayed by their husbands looking at and fantasizing and breathing hard about strange naked women? Nu. They should be proud? They should feel safe?

And how many of the people I have met here on GYE say they have a "porn problem" and really it is much worse and they have contact with other women or with men? What of them? And more important - what of their wives? You tell them to "keep fighting," even though they are already losing and betraying their wives with other women...but Hashem rejoices in the precious struggle of a yid? Who will tell this great nechomah to their wives? You?

Oh, I forgot. They are hiding behind a computer and a username here on GYE. So their wives don't have to know...

So which part does Hashem find more precious? The continued hiding and lying about sex and lust for the sake of "upholding the Torah"? Or is it the crying these people do all alone in the mikvah after saying tikkun klali secretly....so no one real should know about their problem?

Nu. Maybe one day Hashem will once again be "someone real" for them....

And that is all that the 12 steps is about. And I say every yid is precious to Hashem even if he is not struggling to overcome his YH! But we are not an a beauty pageant to Hashem, here. We are here to be mentchen first (that's derech eretz) as human beings, and to successfuly keep the Torah as His special people.

There is no Torah without derech eretz, period. Plenty of crying and fake deveikus that feels oh, so real - but no Torah, at all. Zero. The recovery I am giving away is for derech eretz for those of us who do not have it, cuz we have come to admit that we are sick in the head and body. I do not try to convince anyone that they are addicts! Ever! I just try to help them open up their own eyes if they want to and see what they know about themselves.

In fact, I believe most yidden out there do have the power to overcome the YH for porn and masturbation because I feel strongly that the overwhelming majority of yidden who like looking at porn just have a YH and a bad habit, and not an addiction. I am not one of those, but have been clean for 14 years nonetheless, b'Chesed Hashem. I make a kiddush in my shul for that every year, so far (though only my wife and I know what it is about! ).

Hashem surely loves when we get free of our ingrained insanity and stupidity and can once again serve Him as sane yidden. And that is what I am trying to do today.

Anything wrong with that?

Sorry for another megillah, and sorry if I snubbed you, nothing personal, I promise. I just feel I had to get that off my chest. Now, let me have it...everybody else is.... :-[

to dov,
WOW how you took me wrong, i do have a problem and i know that it is an addiction. But what i was talking about was not looking at porn but the fact that we "think" we can't do it, the YH called "yeuish" the YH that i can't change, what i was saying was YOU CAN CHANGE! Its your imagination/YH which tells you your a gonner! we all can get through it!

its ok you misunderstood but i'm sure now you agree.

Do not worry!!!

You are only truly a part of GYE when Dov spends a good portion of his day writing out a letter to you that completely takes you aback. 

Just remember that Dov has got the experience (For the record I didn't even read Dov's post, I just figured he knows what he's talking about if every single guy reacts the same way to his first speech that he gives them).

Welcome!!

Helpfyi wrote on 05 Jun 2011 20:25:


WOW, how wrong I was!! We agree 100%. If people really think that failing means they can never change, then they are really up the creek, indeed! I thank Hashem every day that he somehow kept a spark of hope glowing in my heart, no matter how badly I flopped and despondent I got. If not for that, I'd have never kept trying to get help!

In repayment for my questionable choseid b'ksherim, I bless you with ever growing awareness of hKb"H and simcha in the clarity it brings. Not bad, huh?

Rising Up - that was funny! Have a great Shavuous, y'all!

thanks dov, i'm new here i guess your one of the guys who know what your talking about, keep up the good work in this holy mission!

Dear Ontheedgeman,

I'm just dropping in to say hello.

I'm impressed at your willingness to be open-minded here.  You started with the Zohar calling this addiction hopeless, and were able to drop in when given intelligent answers.  That's really impressive--not everyone can do that.

And, you seem to be taking ideas, and taking suggestions, very seriously.

You seem to have all the right ingredients for recovery.

Good luck,

--Eye.