Aside form semantics, the entire question is only to be discussed when it is lema'aseh, and is just useless philosophizing when the participants are not actually sober (clean).

Length of time sober definitely means something, but not very much. The point of it seems to be that if I truly need to remain sober the rest of this day (that's my only business), then I need to avoid taking the first drink at all costs today. Simple. It is not the third or fouth drink that gets me out of control, it is always and only the first one. Even if it does not seem that way, I have simple faith that this is true. That takes a certain degree of humility to accept - that I cannot habdle what most other people (even yidden) obviously can handle without losing my sanity and usefulness. They can do that - I cannot - because I am sicker than they are. Not because I am a kodosh and they are not concerned with such madreigos...otherwise, I'd not have gotten to this depraved state in the first place. They can look at porn or even masturbate once in a while and yet I cannot, or my brain and life goes into a tailspin and I eventually ruin and lose everything. Something is wrong with me. I cannot lust and enjoy it like a gentleman.

Frummies like us often have an impossible time accepting that - because porn and masturbation are assur (and bad!). So we cannot easily accept that by being clean, we are not necessarily better than others in any way. Many of us tend to suddenly switch from depraved and confused perverts, into 'budding kedoshim' just because we do the work and end up clean for 90 days or a year...mazel tov, you didn't drown yourself. For this we deserve a medal of some sort? But no, we need the ego massage. Maybe I do, too.

But the truth is that we did not quit because of frumkeit - or we'd have done so long ago! Usually, we only finally really quit because of enlightened self-interest: the schmutz is not working for us any more. It became too upsetting, too painful, too scary, or whatever. Our old friend became our enemy. Not Hashem's enemy, the Torah's enemy, nor our Neshoma's enemy - but our enemy.

Then we get better and we talk as though we did it from frumkeit, or for G-d's sake? Nonsense. I want no part in that. Even though people have given me kovod and called me tzaddik and stuff like that, I know it's ridiculous. Besides from the fact that it is a lie, the day I believe them I will no longer be mesugal for sobriety - cuz that would mean that I am makchish the Shoresh of my sobriety: powerlessness (personal failure) and (enlightened) self interest.

Did I answer your question at all?

dov wrote:

Oy.  I think I might be included in that--but how do I know?  What makes me say that is that other than the bitul zman (which is actually not all that significant for me--but that may be the y"h talking), I haven't suffered any damage in olam hazeh from porn and wasting seed.  So am I an addict or part of this group with a higher endurance that you described.  I usually go 3-4 days clean, then a fall, then 3-4 or maybe 5 days clean, then a fall, then another few days clean, then ... and so on.



Only infrequently it's the first drink (i.e. 4-5 minutes of image-viewing) that gets me, more often it's like the 3rd/the continuation.  I can handle the first drink, I believe.



Right, right.  Regardless of whether or not I can "handle" however much, I still get ruchniyus damage from it.  Btw, I'm not yet frum.

Well, I guess I'm rambling.  And as you can tell, I've never even taken the first of the 12 steps.  I don't quite know whether or not I'm powerless.  But yeah, regardless of it, I know I'd be better off if I just quit the habit.

From the feel of your writing, it seems that an addict can just be a "dry drunk" for a period of time, but never exactly "sober," since the beast is still reeled inside.

Thanks, Reb Dov.  The straightforwardness of your writing is always good to read.  I appreciate your thorough reply.

My stuff in blue (together, we are black-and-blue!):

shomerbris wrote on 04 May 2011 05:30:

So to recap, you do not really take the 1st step - it overtakes you. That is why getting sober is not a measure of how 'good' one is - we do not really end up trying to quit because we are 'good' enough, but because we need to enough. The fact that we cannot really take moral credit for letting go of our precious lusting is a very important factor in our continued sobriety, for humility is the key to keeping this thing. We need to be cut down to size - or else our addiction does it for us, and with a ruthless vengeance. Yuck. (And that's why you can skip the 'Reb' before my name, please.)

When that happens - and it eventually will if you are an addict - then we will understand each other very, very well.

Blind Beggar wrote on 12 Sep 2010 13:51:



Aristotle said "One swallow does not make a spring, nor does one fine day." We can add that a wet dream makes neither slip nor fall.

Thanks so much, Dov and BlindBeggar.  I came across something in a Twerski book the other day and it bettered my hashkafa, I think.  It went like this (I'm oversimplifying here): say you have a precious, beautiful piece of silverware, worth a lot of money.  Of course, you're not going to throw it in mud, but even more than that, you'll take great care to make sure that it retains its precious condition.  You wouldn't want to chip it or drop it on the ground or anything.  So too one can/should/must/might say the same (or even more so) about his own neshama.  It's so precious, we should take really good care of it.  I don't think Twerski was talking specifically about addictions, but it stands to reason that--(this is me talking) looking at pritzus is treating our neshama like one who holds that precious silverware by two fingers--that's dangerous!  So now I'm convinced that, whether or not I'm an addict, taking that "first sip" and looking at pritzus on shiksas (or Jewish women, for that matter) is dangerous and potentially wreak damage, just as holding that silverware by two fingers can potentially wreak damage.  So whether or not I can "handle" the first sip/slip, and regardless of whether or not it will lead me to waste seed, it in and of itself is dangerous and hazardous to the neshama--so I've got to stay away.

This feels good--I think I can see things clearly, now.

^but I've yet to try that out.  Based on Dov's post, I'd say that if it's not effective enough, then I'm an addict, since that would be the point of doing something despite knowing intellectually how hazardous it is.

goot gezokt, reb yid!