and always remember to do some tehillim before tshuva, so the tshuva will reach the right place u need, to remove the grimy timtum halev

conclusion: god not listening is not a punishmnet but part of a system
he himself is koolo tov
when we deal with his lackeys, they take no bribes or flattery
they are spiritual robots, more powerfull than us
but WE are men, who are greater than angels, and know how to slip by em, to the loving papa, Hashem, who was kulo tov the whole time

if we see a mekor for god hating someone for this, please share.
are their mekoros that the wasted seed went into the nukva diklipa, lilis, and she had children with you, who will torment you and torture your real family? sure, see taharas hakodesh

but that's without tshuva

id like to save my skin and prevent that with some tshuva

the scare tactics dont help people who have issues like me

or addicts who are dying

and writing a letter to the chevra kadeesha while trying this last try, the little miserable tzaddik90 kuntress

tzaddik90/Special Weapons And Tactics wrote on 13 Apr 2011 08:00:

t'is neither 'little' nor 'miserable'

a wonderful and wide-ranging collection of powerful and useful advice
many many thanks for going to such lengths to reduce the chevra kadisha clientelle
no one will ever know how many people are/were helped by this
tzadik90, ata hachi tov!

tzaddik90/Special Weapons And Tactics wrote on 13 Apr 2011 07:50:

jus to clariefy, are you saying that as long as I daven from my heart Hashem will still listen to me every morning when i wake up at dawn to go to shul, even though I masturbate? or is my davening a pointless activity?

tzaddik90/Special Weapons And Tactics wrote on 13 Apr 2011 08:00:


Ok i am about to write something controversial but I need some clarity as to what teshuva actualy means. I come from a completly secular backgound, when i was a kid the only frum person i knew was a relitive who used to molest me whem he stayed at us.
Because of this when I was a teenager I hated yidishkiet as i wrongly associated yidishliet with this man.
thank G-d I have matured.
I have slowly started becoming more observant.
now thanks to ths relitive of mine I go to a psychologist
He is not jewish but respects my spiritual aspirations. He told me and i realised myself that I am not yet ready to try stop masturbation.
He told me that it would be dangerous for me to think of masturbation as something negitive as I tend associate this negitivity with the past.
one day I hope i will be able to work on masturbation  but I am just not ready.

now why do a have to do teshuva for masturbating? surley one only needs to do teshuva for thing that is with in one power to do?

at the moment i regard my masturbation as a positive expresstion of of sexuality
I know that ultimatly I need to stop. But on a psychological level masturbation is positive and compared to molesting someone and distroying their soul it is the greatist mitzvah.

baalteshuva wrote on 13 Apr 2011 16:04:


Rambam puts it very nicely and explicity in Mishna Torah - Hilchos Teshuva (2:1)  [Who has reached] complete Teshuvah? A person who confronts the same situation in which he sinned when he has the potential to commit [the sin again], and, nevertheless, abstains and does not commit it because of his Teshuvah alone and not because of fear or a lack of strength.



If you are serious, I would very, very strongly recommend seeing a Torah-observant psychologist for another opinion.  I saw a torah-observant psychiatrist, who said "if you were not Jewish, I would tell you X.  But we will try Y."



Have you asked a Rabbi this question?  You would probably need to get a Heter based upon medical grounds.  But I'm sure a Rabbi would ask you to see a Torah-observant psychologist for a second opinion.  In fact, I pretty much know so




Ask yourself whether you have a very sophisticated and clever Yetzer Hora.  The easiest way to determine this is to ask a Rav, or at least a Torah-observant psychologist! <-- That sounded judgmental.  I apologize.  What I should have said is that you seem to be a person who is concerned with doing the right thing.  You have an air of respect and humility, and a clear sense of responsibility that you should not harm others, and that this might prevent such activities.  That can be used against you, and the Yetzer Hora us unlikely to come to you as a ruffian telling you to be bad.  Rather, it is more likely to approach you and convince you that you should do good.  I've yet to meet someone who has come as far as you have in Teshuva (from non-Frum to Torah-committed) who has a ruffian for a Yetzer Hora

There are Kosher-le-Pesach alternatives to Chometz medicines, you know...  And even ways of avoiding gelatin in medicines!

TheJester-
first of all i did not mean to imply that i need to masturbate inorder to stop me abusing someone cv. there is no excuse for abuse.
if someone is abused it does not mean that he has to abuse.

secondly it is not about hetarim, it is about realistic gradual growth. i highly suggest that you read me3's post above, it is my underlyning point.
please read this also
www.drsorotzkin.com/quest_for_perfection.html
all the best

baalteshuva wrote on 13 Apr 2011 18:14:


My apologies for misunderstanding, and missing your actual question:



The question I wrongly saw was "is it OK for me to keep masturbating, because I see it as a positive expression, and OK for where I am now (as ratified by a psychologist), given that as I progress it will ultimately become wrong?".

Rather, your premise is that it is not within your power to stop masturbating at the moment.  Therefore, why should you do Teshuva?

Great question, and I don't actually have an answer.  And I suppose that the same question could be asked of any of the things a BT takes on gradually.  Like Shabbos, Kashrus, Shemit'a produce, abstaining from theft and gossip.

By the way, great article - I did not understand its context, I'm afraid.  Ah - I found that there other related sections.  It took a lot of convincing from my own therapist that I suffered from perfectionism.  You must have read some of my other posts

Edit: Deleted poor quality link.

Hi
I just had a thought. Someone who literally believes that Hashem turns a deaf ear to their cries may be mistakenly be having a heretical belief
Number 10 of the 13 principals states that Hashem knows all our thoughts.      In other words He is with us and knows our pain and sincerity and hugs us all the way.
Bottom line- no many eyed monster is going to destroy our connection with our loving father. 

hi bt, i see you are a torah jew. here is s/thing i wrote that the forum did not let me post earlier. see if it can help give u more direction in the recovery you want, via compare or contrast:


bt,
i do not know your torah knowledge or background. We must be careful to express who we think has heretical beliefs, simply based on the rambams 13 rules. Even those 13 are a matter of controversy. I think you can say that from what you saw among the 13 principles, you got hope that Hashem, knower of your thoughts and efforts to cling to him, will hopefully be aroused by your prayers, DESPITE the spiritual reality that in an impure state, the spiritual world is designed to interface between u and Hashem and turn your tefillah down.

We already wrote here, Hashem has many hanhagos, from chessed to rachamim to din, he has eiss ratzon, the 13 middos of mercy, bitzdaka echezeh panecha, tehilim, segulos, hashgacha pratis, taken previous gilgulim into account, and future condsiderations.......there is ALWAYS a way to access these hanhagos, from anywhere
however, one cannot naively say "i will play a flute and Hashm will listen to my prayer."

we must learn about and work IN the system, because there IS a way that things work. God doesnt listen to tefillah so much unless several things are met as well. God cares about sincerity, sure. but he is not a vatran-

so there is a system to relating to God, no matter where u are, but we must use that system.
for example, part of orthodox torah judaism is that masturbation is assur, no matter what dr ying zang said about it. It is like eating trief. You cant stop? no problem-neither can i(the truth is i can). but i know its assur, shouldnt have hAppened, had regret, and repented for it. will it happen again in ten minutes? could be....probably,....but i told God already it will never happen again...so for all intents and purposes, it wont happen again... .

this is our faith. SA embraces many faiths. but gye is for jews. these are our beliefs from sinai. even the goyim of sa believe there can be no first drink-not for religious reasons, but because if they have it they will die. im like that too, to say the truth.


to boot, our own experiences, numbering in the hundreds, is that there is no such thing as waiting to stop-this technical twist in your recovery is unneccesary, it is also contrary to the big book, which was written completely based on experience which steps are necessary to become sober and which not.


We are a nucleas of people with enormous collective experiences in addiction and masturbation, recovery and healing from, etc.

we all pretty much agree to the same set of variables that are necessary to help us recover. We do not think there are no other tools but ours, because even the 12 steps are only suggestions. However, we have a system that does not infringe upon halacha, and only improves our religious devotion, from which we and over 2 million people in 180 countries, since 1935, have become sober, without needing to just masturbate a few more times until we recover. Ready or not, we will not again take the first sip. Will it happen again?

could be. It shouldnt, and all this despite any tale of your background, because our massive world wide collective successful experience says otherwise. for bhuddists, truck drivers, and jews, religious, anti religious, no matter.

if it does happen again and you are "not ready" then grow up and get ready, my friend. let go.

did u not hit bottom hard enough to feel dying to stop? have u reached insanity yet?
if u didnt, it may be a good investment, becAuse THAT will get you to be darn ready right NOW. at least hit bottom while still on top by listening to the rest of us.

for me, looking at even one woman this yom tov in the pretty clothes, it is suicide. for me it is death. i might as well write my will. I know that by just looking at her too long, i will get her in my head, and then act out, and then feel guilt, and then be upset and blame my wife, and then do it again, and then.........before u know it i am either in jail, got a ticket to gehinom, or dont have my wife anymore, at least not in spirit, if not even divorce.

before u know it, my behavior will reach the hated insanity that i remember, and i will maybe get abn anxiety attack. under all the pain, i will stop davening like last time, and kill my neshama. as my wife, family, and neshama go down the tubes, i will be begging everyone to grant me just another chance, just another... .

so i cant ever masturbate again, or i will die.



my sponsor is a 68 yr old goy, who was gay, and has not acted out or masturbated for 18 years.

if he can stop, i know i can too.

bt,
recover and grow, just make sure you smooth out these deyos you mentioned earlier here on the forum, with someone who has experience and success, like the moderators here.

AND have a good yom tov,
tz90/swat :D

after pesach or yom tov we can all pick this up properly, in our clean houses, and work together to grow and unfurl all concerns and questions that we need to answer to recover

this pesach night, b'n i plan to stay up for hours and just ask Hashem to free me of addiction, isnt that a worthy endeavor

a geulah nafshis

tzaddik90 please read my response to you below sorry if I sound at all disrespectful, but I need to make my point.

"We must be careful to express who we think has heretical beliefs, simply based on the rambams 13 rules. Even those 13 are a matter of controversy"

Exactly! That's exactly my point, sorry. I should have explained this. I am saying that just as (arrogant) people may say I'm a heretic I can just as easily say that they are and you are right, we are both
wrong.


"one cannot naively say "i will play a flute and Hashm will listen to my prayer.""

Well if you regard me crying to Hashem from my heart everyday as a silly game then I can't argue with you. To you davening may be simple playing, to me it means much, much more.

"we must learn about and work IN the system, because there IS a way that things work"

Yes there is a system, but I don't believe I should learn about it
There is a reason why only a select few learn kabbalah. You see my mind cannot understand these things and I will get a dangerously wrong understanding.
I would land up chas veshalom saying things like "why would I want a relationship with someone that boils innocent, sincere people in there own semen?"

"part of orthodox torah judaism is that masturbation is assur"

I agree, I also understand that it is a normal and healthy part of one's sexuality. Is this a contradiction? I don't think so, the bris is given in the 8th day, 8 represents above the natural world, we jews have a wonderful task to slowly, at our own individual level rise above the natural world.
However it is important to acknowledge that there is addictive masturbation but there is also the normal healthy drive to masturbate (especially if one is single)
Once this is accepted and one realizes that he is not a pervert, he can slowly begin the holy task of rising above this natural urge.
If you think that what I wrote above makes me an apikoris please let me know.

"but i know its assur, shouldnt have hAppened, had regret, and repented for it. will it happen again in ten minutes? could be....probably,....but i told God already it will never happen again...so for all intents and purposes, it wont happen again.."

Well if that works for you great, personally I need to grow gradually, I have realized this from experience


"and all this despite any tale of your background, because our massive world wide collective successful experience says otherwise. for bhuddists, truck drivers, and jews, religious, anti religious, no matter."

I word of advice - don't assume that what works for you and others will work for everyone.
Personally I need to grow slowly and cannot give up masturbation instantly. Please see me3's post above. I have also discussed this issue with one of the therapist recommended on this website, he actually also has smicha.

"grow up"

Just because someone has a different approach to you does not always
mean that they are being immature

I an very sorry is I have upset you.

tzaddik,I read some of your help-sos post, I never knew you had it bad in the past I am not sure if you were sexually abused like me but I can feel some of your pain. I understand that you want to help me but you must realize that there is more. Than one approach and that no one approach helps everyone.

Also let me explain why I am so sensitive, every night I stay up in paralyzing terror that my thought are heretical and that I am no longer regarded as part of the Torah world.
It consumes me, is driving me made, and is killing me, infinitely more than any masturbation would. 

dear baal teshuva,

this is very serious. we must talk this out, here on the thread. pm's are not sufficient, because then only one person can offer advice, possibly being wrong, or not available.
Baal teshuva, whether u use this thread, or make a new one (u may use this one if u like), u must thrush out these issues.

this forum is here for this very purpose.
alot of us here have suffered terribly in our lives and can identify in various ways. More so, even someone who does not have exactly the same tzaros as u can relate, because there is one thing in common about all of us, and that is: none of us knew how to live our lives properly, and deal woth tough times.

in this respect at least, we all share a common language.


you must  put your life together. these fears are unnecessary and must be dealt with.
as a matter of fact, i myself can relate alot to your struggles.

please want to talk this out and tell us, what is your story, what are your struggles, tell us alot. spare no words. just make spaces between paragraphs and we will read it with care and see if we , from our own EXPERIENCES, can share with you what made us break free, and be successful.

i beg of u, post here, and allow yourself to get out of this pain.

we do care, and if i cannot speak for others, i can speak for myself.

with pesach coming, do not let up, just post and we can all do our best to understands you, hear you, feel for you, and perhaps show you some tools that we also used in our own lives that helped us become recreated, happily and wholefully usefull to God and mankind.

please.

baal teshuva,

i never said that i have THE tool for you, and the ONLY tool. however, if u want someone that can identify with living hell, i am here for you.
anxiety, depression, stress, recurring thoughts, suicide, hamburgers, you name it.
it is your pain that has reached such an unbearable level that in THIS i feel we are like brothers. we do have a common language, and i am open minded and caring, not nec. do i have anything to offer, but i do care, and will use my past pain to help whomever i can

understand as well that i have not properly read any of your posts in their sequence, in addition to the fact that while u started posting here asking a torah question, it seems that you really have painful struggles with being viewed as a heretic, or bt, whatever.
so while u started posting here with the guise of torah seeking, u now post to us showing us all of your pain. i never knew i was to write a post to a guy in pain. you never really told us about your pain and struggles. so now that i see a cloudy image of who you represent, i can now reply to you with the proper respect and understanding that you need.

we will NOT discuss here hashkafa or rambams-we need to discuss "what's goin on buddy what rocked your boat?"

along that road, we can also discuss this idea of not being "ready" to stop, and doing things gradually. i think alt here have good ponits to offer about this.

but i'll tell you what-i will not discuss this idea or ANYTHING for my sake. do what you want. be gay. wear a yin yang. That is your issue. i am not here as a fellow jew to police you into thinking the way i think, and i was never interested in this.

however, if u have a sincere, 100% desire to seek all the tools that you can find to heal, and you think that someone here or thing can help you, then that's what we are here for.

we are here to reach out to others who want to change, particularly in the areas of porn and masturbation, and in life in general. if we can help you, great. that's all

now, till you wake up and see this, here's a little eye opener for your cofee table-
why do you care to be viewed as a heretic?
what do u care that s/one on the internet that u never met in your life thinks your a tzaddik, or a priest?
why does this SCARE u so much, that u say you are in paralyzing fear?
i am not afraid of this, and i know alot of people disagree with what i say, so what magnifies it for you?
new question, even better: what's wrong with being a heretic? if u dont believe in God then whats wrong-and if u DO believe in god, then why do you think hed look down at you for your views?
unless.......could it be....perhaps....
inside you know you dont ALLOW certain views because you DESIRE to remain unchanged in certain ways from your previous lifestyle? and bec. God knows this, he thinks youre a heretic, and you also feel guilty from this, that somone outside of your mind will catch your contradictory lifestyle as frum jew but radical reformer, and you are afraid we will notice it?

and if this was all true and we noticed it, so what?

and what if u were guilty of the most disgusting relationships of sexual promiscuity with armadillos in the zoo? so what

and what if you are a bt?
so what

and when does a question that you have about something or a fear, become a solution?
and what if u made mistakes in life  so what

what if u think that everyone ffb will never look at you the same  so what


YOU SEE, ALOT OF PEOPLE ALSO HAVE HAD DIFFERENT VIEWS, OR WERE BT'S OR DID CRAZY SEXUAL CRIMES WITH ARMADILLOS, BUT THE KNEW THAT THE BEGINNING OF ALL HEALING WAS TO ASK THEMSELVES "SO WhAT"
SO WHAT

WERE ALL NUTS OR WEIRD, OR DUMB SO WHAT

THE GREAT THING ABOUT US ALL IS THAT WE ALL WANT TO GROW

and how does all this affect your porn and m?

STOP BRINGING YOUR FEAR HERE
IF THERE'S ANY SAFE [LACE IN THE WORLD, IT'S HERE

SO PUT DOWN YOUR FEAR AND LET'S TALK like good friends