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TOPIC: Fallen 2382 Views

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 17:37 #103399

kosher
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willnevergiveup wrote on 06 Apr 2011 16:32:

(and to answer someone's question earlier this is the first time (and last time) I slept with anyone besides my wife.

I do understand where your coming from on GYE and the approach is important for addicts but no for one time idiots like myself.

You all say I need help, if it is regarding Teshuva, it is charatah Azivas hacheit, Kabala al Haba and of course davening. If it is so it should not happen again, I will BEH work on myself, specially with regarding Emess that someone mentioned.
Am I missing something is there anything else I need help for.

willnevergiveup wrote on 06 Apr 2011 16:32:

.... and yes this was the first and last time I have slep with another woman.. period. I know where I messed up, what caused this to happen and next time I go to the country, I either take a shomer with or put strict kabalas on myself which do work (like the strip club incident did).

I don't know how to define "addict" and my experience is different than many other people here. I can say with a large degree of confidence that as long as you walk around saying it was a one time thing and can't/won't happen again you are almost guaranteed to fall again.

Only after we realize that if we did it once, we are at constant risk of doing it again and have to be constantly on guard and taking protective measures do we have any chance...

I am not big enough to not do something I WANT to do because I know it is wrong, but I've been around long enough not to want to do many things, even though they are really enticing at the first glance.

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Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 18:01 #103403

ben durdayah Current streak: 49 days OFFLINE Platinum Boarder No, that is not a mouse... Posts: 1253 Karma: 5
	For Dov and the other two guys who care, My real name really is Eli Like the original Bendy, Ein hadavar talui ela bee Last Edit: by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 18:02 #103404

Dov OFFLINE Administrator Posts: 1960 Karma: 383	I feel sick to my stomach, and you are clapping?
	"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same." Last Edit: by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 18:17 #103406

ben durdayah
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Yes dov,

We are clapping because we had to survive three weeks without you, and your seichel hayashar is ke'mayim karim al nefesh a'yefah.

Although I do have rachmunnis on him insofar as a potential paternity suit is concerned (if this woman is not active, then she's most probably not on the pill either...)

Reb Willnevergiveup: Never say never. Before you did this I'll bet that if asked you'd say that you'd never ever ever do such a thing. No one is saying that this one night (actually it might have been one biah, but you seem to say it was a few nights) stand makes you promiscuous or an addict by definition.

However, what dov is trying to tell you, is that even among gentiles, adultery is referred to infidelity. Infidelity is a synonym for dishonesty. Even a total atheist -if he is a mentch -should be able to understand that there is an immense problem here, and it is not the aveirah she'bein adam la'makom, and perhaps not even the aveirah she'bein adam lachaveiro.

It is the moral vacuum inside of you (or us for that matter) that you (we) have to fix. And that moral vacuum can cause you (ch"v) to do the exact same (or worse) time and again.

This is not a matter of "teshuva". This is a matter of being a decent person.

And people like dov saw that in a place called SA.

E

PS -dov, you can barf now if you want... I'll bring a shissel.

For Dov and the other two guys who care,
My real name really is Eli
Like the original Bendy, Ein hadavar talui ela bee

Last Edit: 06 Apr 2011 18:21 by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 18:52 #103418

ur-a-jew
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ben durdayah wrote on 06 Apr 2011 18:17:

Reb Willnevergiveup: Never say never. Before you did this I'll bet that if asked you'd say that you'd never ever ever do such a thing. No one is saying that this one night (actually it might have been one biah, but you seem to say it was a few nights) stand makes you promiscuous or an addict by definition.

However, what dov is trying to tell you, is that even among gentiles, adultery is referred to infidelity. Infidelity is a synonym for dishonesty. Even a total atheist -if he is a mentch -should be able to understand that there is an immense problem here, and it is not the aveirah she'bein adam la'makom, and perhaps not even the aveirah she'bein adam lachaveiro.

It is the moral vacuum inside of you (or us for that matter) that you (we) have to fix. And that moral vacuum can cause you (ch"v) to do the exact same (or worse) time and again.

This is not a matter of "teshuva". This is a matter of being a decent person.

And people like dov saw that in a place called SA.

E

My only additions to this is 1) the observation that it usually takes a little humility to recognize the dishonesty within us. The humility comes when we realize that we are not the center of the universe; and 2) if I had to guess after the first night of sleeping with the bimbo/supplier/business associate and not having sex you probably told yourself that you would not be doing even that again (after all having run away from strip clubs I don't see how you can rationalize sleeping with her even without sex), yet you then slept with her a second night, after which you presumably swore that you wouldn't do this again, and then a third night (same thing) and finally on the fourth night she overpowered you. So the question is why should now be any different. It may take a little longer, you may be more cautious so you don't in the future have to be worried sick about STDs but the same rationalizations that allowed you to sleep there for three or four nights still exist.

No one is here to be judgmental about what you did. None of us were in you shoes and therefore we can't say we would have acted differently were we there. But having unquestionably made a terrible mistake its time to realize that maybe you have the wrong perspective on this whole thing. There are people here who can give you very good advice for cleaning up your act. So open up your ears, your mind and heart and listen and accept what they have to say. If you do, you have a chance. If you don't, well from the collective experience of those here it won't be that hard to figure out where you"ll end up.

Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim. www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0

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Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 19:33 #103421

tzaddik90
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you guys really kept yourselves busy while i was away!

i must say, this thread is the nuttiest yet.
plus, i must give the moderators and friends here a backhanded mussar potch-
for some reason, by writing two brainless lines abt. being triggered when touching a female's hand, i got 3, not one, not two, three pm's

but when i write about....i dont?
now THAT'S confusing

Dov, you wrote a gem in your pm, too bad you didnt post it

you are right (you always are!), because we make the woman into a godess, that is the power she holds over us

r nachman discusses this alot, he calls it chein shel sheker

when we see this chein, we start fantasizing and....
when s/thing can shatter the chein, we lose her appeal

my friend once went to a meal as a bochur and was absolutely bugging out at the nice looks of the hostess, then he saw her mercilessly slap her kid for inconveniencing her, and he lost all the chein in one millisecond

my good old rebbi in high school used to quote the song "now im a believer", all about love at first sight

he taught us that this is trumped up fantasy, and that women in real life have zits, bad breath, and flatulate, sorry to be graphic, just saying it to give over the lesson

this is what tanya says from gemara that isha is malei kiya tzoah

r nachman in sichos says the act of intercourse is so disgusting that a real bar seichel cannot possibly lust

isnt that funny, im only 3 billion light years away from that

but im trying

now, to turn the spotlight on mr will,

this is a place of honesty and growth

whats going on on your end?
i dont......

if....

and then....

why....
and...

Last Edit: by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 19:56 #103428

NGU4321
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For some reason everyone seems to think I am not taking things seriously and ignoring everyone's posts and being arrogant.
Just to let you all know (especially Dov and Kedusha) that I am listening carefully and taking everything in.
I agree it is idiotic and naive of me to say it will never happen again, but I will take on as much as possible and increase the emess in my life to to my utmost with Hashems help it will not happen again.

The agmas nefesh I am going through, will stay with me a very very long time.
Forget talking about rape and shaking a womans hand. Shaking a womans hand is not why this happened!

And by the way for those worried about a pregnancy, please do not lose sleep over it, I never came, I pulled before and ran away got into the shower, she was hurt like hell but I had to do what I had to do.

Last Edit: 06 Apr 2011 20:26 by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 20:54 #103438

the.guard
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dov wrote on 06 Apr 2011 17:05:

He is not 100% fine. He is a mess. Again, this entire track seems silly to me. This guy does not hear a thing, except the testing and negiyah mishegas. He is still planning to maintain contact with this same woman (for business purposes, of course - so nothing has been lost at all - for him! His wife has lost her husbands fidelity and doesn't even know it - but his business contacts must stay safe - and on friendly enough terms, I am sure. gedarim and shavu'os? Is that ridiculous? How much arrogance can we have in our ability to withstand more adventures in the future? This is arrogance, not frumkeit. And I am sure she did resent the implication that she might be infected, fine girl as she was...hmm. Indeed.

I need sobriety today. And may not be fit to deal with any more of this silliness.

Now go ahead and edit me.

Sheesh,

Dov

Dov, this is probably the first time I felt a need to edit you. I am surprised that you don't seem to see that this guy is clearly not an addict. If he was an addict, there's no way he could have resisted relations for 3 days with her in his room/bed. And even when it happened, she initiated it. And he also mentioned that had he been on our forum before the story, it wouldn't have happened. He also mentioned that had he thought of STDs before hand, it wouldn't have happened. All this shows me he is not an addict. Common guys? 2000 miles from home in a hotel room with a woman and you would hold back for 3 days, or hold back altogether because of some small chashash of illness? An addict wouldn't, period. And he also said he doesn't have an issue with porn and mast. and he never slept with anyone before and won't again. And he also said he doesn't go in to the strip bars and such, even though he is far from home. Would real addicts be able to hold back from all these things?

So I don't understand you guys. Do you think only addicts can fall? Any normal male, even with Yiras Shamayim, who is 2000 miles from home, had a few drinks, etc... can fall. And they do every day. And no, that doesn't make them addicts.

So my opinion, for what it's worth, is that this guy needs to feel bad about what he did. He needs to follow the standard Teshuvah model of Charata, Aziva and Kabbala, etc... And make new gedarim.

And he doesn't need to cut off all ties with his supplier over this. He is not an addict. He felt the pain of the fall and is sure it won't happen again. He will make new gedarim next time he is in that distant country. He has learned from his fall and will grow from it, like any good normal Jew.

So I felt I had to edit out that line, Dov. Sorry.

Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.

Last Edit: 06 Apr 2011 22:13 by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 20:56 #103439

Dov
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Fine, nobody hates you and we are sympathetic. Besides, you are a heligeh yid still, no less than anyone here, no matter how ugly we may have sunk. Fine.

But you really may need to do better for yourself by continuing to speak with a (safe) Rov about it and what to do to prevent it from happening OK. So the point from here forward is not what happened or how bad it was, but what work you have left to do about the future, now. For your marriage and for yourself. To give up the next 'opportunity' to do it again....she is a person. She may still want to have something to do with you, you know. Is the relationship really 'over'?

Calling her about it and discussing it is probably stupid - and would probably be yet another betrayal of the marriage. But how are you to act? What if she wants more? What is your part now? What if she calls you - or your wife? How can you really get this other person out of your life and really start fresh?

These are sensitive and difficult issues and need seichel and siyata diShmaya.

Hatzlocha.

PS. And you never answered most of my questions about your past, (just the big one). Nu?

"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."

Last Edit: by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 20:57 #103442

ur-a-jew
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willnevergiveup wrote on 06 Apr 2011 19:56:

For some reason everyone seems to think I am not taking things seriously and ignoring everyone's posts and being arrogant.

Imagine a person is very sick he goes to a doctor and says. Listen doctor, I'm sick and I need you to tell me what's wrong with me. But I don't have cancer so don't treat me for that. But I'm all ears for you to tell me what's wrong. You'd say something is wrong with that picture. My dear friend, you have a problem (all of us that are here do). You are very sick with a spiritual disease (not a religious disease). There are some very experienced doctors here. What you should be saying is Doctor: I'm sick, maybe even deathly ill. I don't want to be sick. I want to be better. Tell me what to do? How can I get better? Whatever it takes I'll do?

willnevergiveup wrote on 06 Apr 2011 19:56:

The agmas nefesh I am going through, will stay with me a very very long time.

Is the agmas nefesh because maybe you have an STD? Maybe you're wife will find out? Or does it come from the recognition that perhaps you're life has been somewhat of a lie until now and you would like to rectify that. If its the former, that will pass. If its the latter see above how to go about treating it.

Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim. www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0

Last Edit: by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 21:08 #103444

kedusha Current streak: 717 days OFFLINE Administrator Posts: 3167 Karma: 46	UAJ, Did you read Guard's post above before posting?
	Just as an alcoholic needs to avoid that first sip, a lust addict needs to avoid that first slip.Slip today? No way! ;)Fall today? No way, Jose'! Last Edit: by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 21:21 #103445

Dov
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Just for the record (oy vei) I posted the below post BEFORE seeing Guards post quoted below it:

dov wrote on 06 Apr 2011 20:56:

guardureyes wrote on 06 Apr 2011 20:54:

dov wrote on 06 Apr 2011 17:05:

Dov, this is probably the first time I felt a need to edit you. I am surprised that you don't seem to see that this guy is clearly not an addict. If he was an addict, there's no way he could have resisted relations for 3 days with her in his room/bed. And even when it happened, she initiated it. And he also mentioned that had he been on our forum before the story, it wouldn't have happened. He also mentioned that had he thought of STDs before hand, it wouldn't have happened. All this shows me he is not an addict. Common guys? 2000 miles from home in a hotel room with a hottie and you would hold back for 3 days, or hold back altogether because of some small chashash of illness? An addict wouldn't, period. And he also said he doesn't have an issue with porn and mast. and he never slept with anyone before and won't again. And he also said he doesn't go in to the strip bars and such, even though he is far from home. Would real addicts be able to hold back from all these things?

So I don't understand you guys. Do you think only addicts can fall? Any normal male, even with Yiras Shamayim, who is 2000 miles from home, had a few drinks, etc... can fall. And they do every day. And no, that doesn't make them addicts.

So my opinion, for what it's worth, is that this guy needs to feel bad about what he did. He needs to follow the standard Teshuvah model of Charata, Aziva and Kabbala, etc... And make new gedarim.

And he doesn't need to cut off all ties with his supplier over this. He is not an addict. He felt the pain of the fall and is sure it won't happen again. He will make new gedarim next time he is in that distant country. He has learned from his fall and will grow from it, like any good normal Jew.

So I felt I had to edit out that line, Dov. Sorry.

I agree fully with everything you said, Guard, and do not recall ever having intentionally implied that he was an addict. Nor have I entertained the possibility in my mind that he is an addict. I would rarely speak that way (in religious terms) to a person I assumed was an addict, anyhow. So thanks for removing the screwy line from my post, whatever it was.

As I have said before, I do not believe that the majority of guys - even on GYE - are addicts. I believe that most people need a simple teshuvah process, though some honesty with self would probably help it along a bunch, of course...and that's not easy to come by.

So, sorry for saying something that mades it seem I was suggesting he is mentally ill, as I am. I hope he pursues the contact with a Rov I posted about...(and that was before I saw your post above).

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, willnevergiveup. And in your case, I think it is actually important to maintain a username and not to ever let this out. Again, find a safe Rov.

- Dov

"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."

Last Edit: by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 21:24 #103446

kedusha Current streak: 717 days OFFLINE Administrator Posts: 3167 Karma: 46	I agree about contacting a (safe) Rav. Don't try to do Teshuva for this on your own. You might end up doing too much or too little.
	Just as an alcoholic needs to avoid that first sip, a lust addict needs to avoid that first slip.Slip today? No way! ;)Fall today? No way, Jose'! Last Edit: by .

Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 21:27 #103447

ur-a-jew
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Kedusha wrote on 06 Apr 2011 21:08:

UAJ, Did you read Guard's post above before posting?

I had actually not seen it. And this layman therefore defers to the experienced doctors.

Although, I wonder whether the doctor saw this:
willnevergiveup wrote on 05 Apr 2011 17:03:

yes I have looked at porn occasionally

And, how much more there is to the story, which of course still doesn't mean that he is an addict. But, I'll leave that up to more experienced folks to determine (if the patient wants their two cents).

Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim. www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0

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Re: Fallen 06 Apr 2011 21:36 #103449

NGU4321
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Guard - Just to thank you for the post, I really had started feeling that I was a sick addict with no hope besides a long road of recovery. Yes you are right, it was an huge yetzer Hora that I do not wish on anybody else and it is was a yetzer hora that I have never had in my life so I was totally unprepared. The reason why I did not succumb, was not because I was worried about STD's pregnancy or the like, it was because this was the new barrier I had made for myself, albeit a very very low one.

How many people have been in a country without another Jew or Westerner in sight, thinking about it now it felt like I was not part of the Jewish nation anymore, like I had left it temporarily, even my family felt such a distance and although I spoke it seemed like I was in a different world.

UAJ to say that maybe my life has been one big lie, this is a harsh and over the top comment to make. How can one throw away an entire life because of one Aveirah (yes a big one) imagine the feeling that life has been one big lie. Such a comment should not even be mentioned.

The question is how to prepare for such a phenomena. I really feel the post about integrity, truthfulness and emess is a way forward, but I am not sure where to start.

Last Edit: 06 Apr 2011 22:11 by .