What the gehenom does this have to do with stopping acting out? If you think you are triggered by shaking a woman's hand then don't shake her farshtukeneh hand!

Personally, I go to meetings and to international SA conferences, too, where there can be females in the meetings sitting next to me. If there is, when the meeting is over and it is time to do the (very nice) ritual of holding hands and saying the serenity prayer, I do not hold the woman's hand! I turn to her right before the "circle" and quietly say to her that it is not good for me to hold your hand, so forgive me for not holding your hand - and then I do not hold the hand of the guy  on my other side, either. The reason it is triggering to me is because it is a meeting: there is a certain intimacy there, and a love that all the addicts feel in the room fro the camaraderie. I cannot escape the chiboh, in my heart.

But in the business world I am lenient (after asking a Rov), and shake hands when I cannot avoid it without being completely misunderstood. I try to prevent it from happening, but if it does, I do not make any more of a deal out of it than the goyim do - it's no show of any chiboh at all. They can shake - and still hate each-other just as much, regardless of the gender! 

Ask a Rov and get over it. There are far, far more important things to deal with, amigo. And a Rov will not be enough for those things...

Hatzlocha!

I can talk to those people. yet

I find it quite ironic that a discussion about how bad cheating on ones wife is, turned into a heated battle over whether one can shake the hand of a woman!!!!!  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Anybody with me??

Dov,

I'm with you on this.  I also greatly prefer not shaking hands with women, and try to avoid it.  However, I would not avoid returning a handshake at all costs, but would, rather, rely on those who permit it.  Again, this is a question of Halacha, and I'm not Paskening for others, bein l'chumra u'vein l'kula.  It's also not the place of GYE to take a position on this issue, unless a person finds it triggering.

I will say, however, that holding hands is a completely different matter, and I don't see how it can ever be permitted, whether one is at an SA meeting or not.

Actually it has everything to do with it because it shows how crazy and irrational we are. I don't shake. Yes its caused some awkward situations but that's life as a jew. BUT at the same time I've looked at naked woman. So what does that tell me. It says that Yiras Shomayim is not going to keep me sober. It says to me that if the right situation presents itself and I leave my addiction unchecked I could end up sleeping with a shiksa even though I won't shake her hand. These are fundamental lessons for me.

I am  young , low and sleazy, and have forgotten all of my learning, but i DO recall the sefer of R karelitz chut shani on even haezer 21 that regardless of anything, if something triggers you, it is assur, even according to the maikilim for business. If one gets triggered by looking at an asparagus, then it is absolutely forbidden to look at one.
this is pure logic-i cannot think of almost anyone in the world who would not get even the tiniest hit from shaking a woman's hand
maybe this is because i am so addicted, you tell me
the chazal describe a man who gazes at the hand of a women seller counting out his change and chazal say lo yinake midina shel gehinom.

these words, literally mean "even purgatory will not cleanse him"
yikes

chilull Hashem is NOT defined by what a person thinks, rather by what God thinks

this was discusssed when a few years back a certain jewish institution brough christian officials into their bm while they were wearing crosses
the behavior was justified because "otherwise it would have been a chillul Hashem"
R C D Keller of the moetzess responded in an article that kiddush hashem is halacha, and halacha is that certain people are forbidden to enter a bais medrash

maybe im just too much of an idiot, but if a person can make successful business deals with his fast talking and dale carnegie skills, why cant he come up with a sly way to tell someone "i apologize, my religion forbids any man to have physical contact with another gender, please understand and do not take offense, i say this only out of my integrity and beliefs in my religious practices"

nowadays, same sex marriages are legal, and there is a gay movement, and that is NUTS
and people have to act nice to them, so they will respect me too


hatzlocho

i just hope they respect idiots also....like me....

I respect idiots like you!

I just don't respect you, that's all...



Just Kidding... Gosh, how did he get that RPG missile through my living room window so quickly for crying out loud! Good Grief!  :o

willnevergiveup wrote on 05 Apr 2011 15:27:


Yes, we had some trouble with the server but now it's fixed... I believe that my post to you indeed disappeared. Nu, it's all from Hashem. Here it is again:

Hi. Welcome to our forum. I am the admin of GYE. Your fall was harsh, but you can use it as a spring-board to reach new heights. Often Hashem brings us to a big fall to awaken us, so we can achieve new levels of Kedusha. I want to bring you here what we wrote in Chizuk e-mail #982 from a wonderful Shiur I heard:

The Zohar Hakadosh says that on the day Yosef ran away from Eishes Potifar he achieved the highest level of Tzadik Yesod Olam...

There is a Medrash that says that when Yosef came to do "his work" that day, he was actually going to sin. But then he saw the image of Yaakov Avinu and stopped. There is actually another Medrash (Medrash Abkir - which we don't have today, but is quoted by the other Medrashim) that says that even the image of Yaakov Avinu wasn't enough to stop him. He was also shown the image of his mother Rachel, and only then did he finally run out. But the Medrash Akbir goes on to say that he was overcome with such a strong desire that he actually turned around and headed back towards the house. At that point, Hashem himself appeared to Yosef and told him that if he sinned the world would have to be destroyed. Only then did Yosef finally turn and run away.

The question is asked: What Jew would continue to sin even if he saw the face of Yaakov and Rachel? And what human being - even a non-Jew - would continue to sin even after Hashem Himself came and said that the world will be destroyed if you sin?? So why did this test lift him to the high level of Tzadik Yesod Olam? Anyone would have refrained in such a situation!

And here is the answer that he said over from Tzadikim, which I found truly beautiful:

The entire year prior to that fateful day, the wife of Potifar had tried to seduce Yosef every day. Chazal say that she encompassed the powers of seductions of all women of all times. She was the greatest "Klippah" of this temptation, and Yosef had used his own righteousness and free-choice to avoid her for a full year. He had already done all he could do with his own free will, but his madrega wasn't "complete" because there was no way for him to avoid the feeling deep down of "I was able to overcome this great test"... As great a Tzadik as Yosef was, there was no way for him to not have a slight feeling of "Kochi Ve'Otzem Yadi" in his overcoming these great tests. Therefore, his great Medrega was still missing the true recognition that everything he had achieved was really from Hashem. In order to bring Yosef to the madrega of Tzadik Yesod Olam, he had to come to a complete recognition of this reality. And that was the purpose of this final test. Yosef was shown clearly that he could NOT withstand this last time without clear divine intervention. He saw that he indeed would have fallen had Hashem not stopped him. And with this recognition, Yosef was able to achieve the "Bitul" that completed his Madrega, and through this he reached the high level of Tzadik Yesod Olam.

Wow!

But there's more...

The shiur went on to explain how this is the bechina of Moshiach ben Yosef. However, the Bechina of Moshiach ben Dovid required an even deeper internalization of this recognition, and that is why David Hamelech was actually brought to sin by Heaven. In order to reach the level needed for Moshiach ben David, he needed an even deeper recognition of this reality, and therefore he wasn't saved from the sin like Yosef was. He was brought to fall, and his Tikkun was accepting that it was brought about by Heaven. His struggle and test were not with the sin itself. That was preordained by Hashem. His test was what he would do AFTER the fall. David retained his faith and didn't fall into Yiush - even though the shechinah left him for 20 years afterwards! That was David's test - and his greatness.

The speaker then quoted from Rav Yechezkel Levinson, the Mashgiach of Ponovitch, who wrote in his sichos Mussar for Elul that everything that happens to us, including our sins, are really from Hashem. So Rav Yechezkel asks, if this is the case, what is asked of us? And he answers something amazing. I couldn't believe it when I heard it. He said that what is asked of us is only to come to the recognition that our falls are from Hashem. As long as we feel WE did the sin, we are far from our Tikkun. Our Teshuvah is nothing more and nothing less than coming to the true recognition that Hashem brought us to fall and not to give up. At that point we can have a true Teffilah to Hashem to take us back. The new "Retzonos" that we develop as a result of our fall, that is the real Teshuvah.

It is for this reason that all new spiritual levels are preceded by a fall. We need a Yeridah Letzorech Aliyah to help us renew our "Retzonos" and yearning. Hashem doesn't need our great deeds and great strength in "overcoming tests". Instead, he wants our "Ratzon". And it often takes a fall for us to have a renewal of our spiritual "retzonos". When we are able to recognize that our climbs - and even our falls come from Hashem, we can rekindle our yearnings and cry out from the heart: "Father, take me back. I want You and nothing else!".

tzaddik90/Special Weapons And Tactics wrote on 06 Apr 2011 08:57:


I think it means "he will not be clean (meaning patur) from the din of gehenom" - not that it won't cleanse him. It will.

So take heart everyone. A few hours in the flames and we'll be good as new!  ??? :-[ >

guard,

tzidkas hatzadik 40 says also,
tshuva meahava is to recognize even the falls are from God, and when we sin it is ratzon Hashem.....eyin sham....from the Arizal....

i agree to your interpretation of the chazal.
i did not find yet a source for mine
will-
bottom line,

we never give up

wer'e all here growing each day, serving Hashem

his love is not at all shaken

your part in klal yisrael is of the most important-when u will fix this,
it will rectify on some level all the people who did this sin and didnt do tshuva-taharas hakodesh from besht

we are all here because wev'e sinned in these areas
by working on them, we are collectively crushing the yetzer harah into pulp

the tanya says several times from zohar that God gets more nachas from this, over Torah, over 100 brachos a day, over tefillin...

because when we crush ourselves to remain pure, it creates

an arrousal up above
and GOD lowers the sitra achra

and brings the whole purpose of creation much closer, lihayom sheyeebala hamuvess lanetzach, and mashiach will come, and olam hattikun

not because of most other things, like torah
torah is great, without it the world coulnt exist

but it wont bring mashiach
fighting lust will

its all in the tanya, eyin sham

so you, me, everyone here are part of a big Godly vision

gotta go,
never look back,
just grow,

love,
tz90

As stated earlier, there is a proof from the Yerushalmi in Sotah [3:1, in light of the Psak of the Rambam, Hilchos Sotah 3:15] to allow shaking hands with women.  Rav Aharon Soloveichik, ZT"L, a real Brisker, was Matir to return a handshake based on this Yerushalmi, as discussed here: www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v24/mj_v24i15.html#CDQ.  (It is well-known that Rav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch, ZT"L, and other German Rabbonim were/are lenient as well).

Those who forbid it, presumably, have a way out of this proof.  But, those who are Matir have what to rely upon.

My point is this: if you want to be stringent, Kol Hakavod.  Tavo alecha bracha.  But, recognize that those who are lenient to return a handshake have what to rely on.  Also (and for this reason, I think this discussion is within the scope of the GYE forum), those who are lenient should not view themselves as sinners, which may cause them to throw in the towel and engage in behaviors for which there is no Heter whatsoever.  Just don't be lenient when it comes to Shemiras Einayim and Shemiras HaBris!

Kedusha wrote on 06 Apr 2011 14:38:


Since we are back into this it is worth pointing out that Reb Moshe in no less than three places says that it is ossur (Igors Moshe O"C I - 113, E"H I 56 and E"H IV - 32.9).  Moreover the Steipler in Karyaana Digrisa 172 and 173 says very clearly that it is an issur d'oryasa and he says according to the Chazon Ish it Yehorag V'Al Yaavor.  I have no doubt that there are maykilim in this.  My point is this, whether or not you shake, I don't think that on something so important you should be relying on an internet blog to do so.  This is why you have (or should have) a Rav.  Ask your LOR.

As an aside the din that Kedusha brought down from the Yerushalmi is quoted in the Rav on Sotah (3:1) and it appears to be dervied from a possuk.  As a result, I'm not sure what the raayah is from the case of sotah.  But assuming Reb Rafeal Solovcheik said that it is muttar based on that gemara I know he is much smarter than me, so I am sure there is an answer.  The bottom line is ask your LOR (but as one Rov says, albeit half-jokingly, that if you are going to rely on Rav Moshe to eat Cholov Stam than you shouldn't be shaking a ladies hand).  Personally, I would rather have the ice cream.

So back to the tachlis...where is the dude who started all this? Is he past the silly handshaking issue and back on to the recovery issue yet?

That is where I need to be. If I am in the right frame of mind, all will be OK with the details.

Rav Moshe has three Teshuvos on shaking hands with women.  He forbids initiating a handshake (which, indeed, all, or virtually all, Poskim forbid), but is Melameid Zechus on those who are lenient to return a handshake, concluding, however, that such leniency is difficult to rely upon.  That falls short of saying that the practice is Ossur, although Rav Moshe does not say it is Mutar either.  (Clearly, Rav Moshe would not hold that the practice is Yeihareig v'al yaavor.  Indeed, when I spoke to Rav Reuven Feinstein about this topic 2 years ago, he dismissed the possibility that it would be Yeihareig v'al yaavor, stating "how is it shayich Yeihareig v'al yaavor on a Machshava?"). 
The 3 Teshuvos are summarized here:
www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol10/v10n045.shtml#01 (and, yes, I did learn them in the original).

Part of the problem with being lenient is that some people won't know where to draw the line.  Some people have foolishly suggested that, nowadays, a kiss on the cheek or a hug are not Derech Chibah v'Taivah any more than a handshake is.  So, one who is lenient has to be careful not to allow shaking hands to become a slippery slope.

I was once at a goodbye party at work, and the female honoree wanted to hug me.  I felt my entire eternity flashing before me, and I recognized that I was dealing with a genuine case of Yeihareig v'al yaavor according to all opinions.  I simply responded "I can't."  "Why," she asked, "do you have a cold?"  "Yes," I responded quickly (I didn't), and that was the end of the matter.

Oh, for crying out loud, will you knock it off already!!


Love,

Dov