Tzaddik, you seem to be getting better with age -like a good whine wine.

That was moiradig.

BTW -That which you said about asking forgiveness is mefurash in step 9, and I quote:

"9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others."

Your friend,

E

ben durdayah wrote on 12 Apr 2011 18:32:


In which case we make indirect amends.  The first of which is not doing the harmful thing again, changing ourselves and especially when it comes to our wives there are a million and one ways to do all sorts of indirect amends.  Just remember the next time your wife asks you to do something and you're really not in the mood of doing it.  It's an opportunity to make a small indirect amend.

durdaya, i think you left the door open

Can't be...

I wasn't born in a barn.

But all joking aside, that door was left open by the one who said "Pischu Li Pesach K'chudo shel Machat".

And I takke always wondered how Bill W. was mechaveyn LeDaas Reb Yisroel Salanter!

E

will?

"thy will, not mine, be done"-big book

HI, This was a personal message from someone. I felt many of the comments may be helpful so I have posted with his permission anonymously on the forum.


Quote from: willnevergiveup on April 13, 2011, 01:59:47 AM
Thank you for the comments, I am feeling guilty, but not guilty enough.


If your guilt propels you to do the right thing, that is exactly enough.  If it causes you to dwell on the past, or get depressed in a way that leads to inaction, then it is the wrong sort of guilt.  I don't think that there is "enough" or "not enough", unless there is none at all, or not enough to make things better.

Quote
The only way I am trying to appreciate what I have done to my wife is thinking a scenario that she was Chas vesholom who had the affair. She shared a bed with someone, got into the shower with another man. That is a horrible thought, but I am trying to make myself feel what I have done to her.


It sounds as if you are trying to feel guilt on HER behalf.  And that you are struggling because you don't feel bad enough for what you've done to her.  The question really is - how is she hurt by what you did?  Replaying a situation where the roles are reversed might be good for an initial "kick" into action, but beyond that, will probably foster paranoia and other bad feelings.  You cannot equate what you imagine with how she feels.  The reason being that you are playing out a scenario where you know "what she did" in order to gage how she would feel.  Because, she doesn't know.

You could instead imagine the following: A close friend of hers confided in her that she had lapsed in the same way you did.  What would be her advice to her friend?  That would more accurately describe the action you should take.

That she is indeed hurt should not be ignored.  But the damage done to her is due to your polluting the relationship and yourself, rather than to her directly.  The reparation needs to be directly to yourself and your relationship, which will flow indirectly to her.  If she were to "find out", then the damage would be directly to her.  Something you might have to live with for the rest of your life is a "guilty secret".  Decide how you will ensure that this doesn't affect your relationship.  Another thing she will have to live with is a depressed/guilty you.  Decide how you will make sure that doesn't affect her badly.  Working on those will mitigate, if not repair, the damage you have done to her.

Additionally, there is the damage between you and Hashem, but I really don't know much about these things.  Other than Teshuva is returning, not punishing myself.  The sole goal is to return to state I was before the event, and be prepared not to do it again.

Again - reversing the situation is almost pointless, because the damage you are "feeling" is the damage of knowing.  The damage is much further down, and more difficult to spot.  The focus is on repairing the real damage, not wallowing in pity over the imaginary damage.

Quote
I am reliving it which I explained in my post is plain stupid as it really was not that wonderful. Just working out how to forget it. Not sure yet,
I am confused becuase till the actual intercourse which lasted as I said 30 seconds before I pulled out, I was not feeling guilty at all, (what is wrong with me)


Don't.  It serves no purpose.  I have a trick that worked for me - perhaps it will work for you:
Don't ignore it, but push the thought out, saying "that is not who I am".  The more you relive it, the more it becomes "who you are".  Much of my recovery has been refusing to dwell on what I did, because in a sick way, I was getting off on it.  Not just refusing to dwell on it, but actually saying "no, I will not think that".

Thought is the first boundary you can set, and trust me - you need boundaries more than anything else  At least, if you're like me, you do.

Quote
Alarmed mainly because I can't believe I may have put myself at risk from STD's and chas vesholom Aids!!!

AIDS is extremely rare within heterosexual relationships, and highly unlikely, especially after 30 seconds - even if she had it.  Of course, this risk increases with frequence/risk.  Other things are much more communicable, but eminently more treatable.  I wouldn't worry, but of course there is cause for concern.

I also had myself tested - B"H I got lucky, because I was at much more risk than you were.

Quote
I know it will be so much easier the second time round, that is why I need to improve myself before the next situation presents itself. As I said BH I am not round the corner from her.
Please keep in touch.


You need to do two things:
(1) Make sure the situation does not present itself
(2) Improve yourself

I can almost guarantee that if you work on point 1 really and truly hard, then 2 will come as a by-product of that.  But I wouldn't rely upon it.

Also, this particular person might not be close by, but thousands of others are.  It gets easier.  Really.

Really, really easy.

Especially after the "guilt" wears off.  The Y"H will wait until your guard is down, and present situations where it knows you are weakest.  At least, mine did.  And I know it will again.

What kind of tzitzit do you wear, by the way?

Actual steps:
Here are things I have done - they might not apply in your case.  I travel a LOT for business, and spend countless nights in hotels, by the way.  I could easily "disappear" on business, and have done in the past.

(1) Dismiss role reversal as a tool to realize what you did is wrong/how bad it is, but once you feel wrong (you did already), realize it is not a valid comparison.
(2) Make your first boundary that of thought.  Stop reliving - push the thought out actively.  Say "this is not who I am" - otherwise it might become who you see yourself as.
(3) Make a point of calling your wife every night that you are away, make sure she always has a way to contact you, and knows where you are.
(4) Tell your wife you love her every single day that you are away.
(5) Determine and stick to boundaries.  Could be shaking hands.  Could be going to drinks.  Could be lots of things.  I have "warning" boundaries, and "absolute" ones.  These are probably the most personal, and apply differently to us all.

These are just a few of the things I do.

Good luck.

You, the fox, are getting advice to guard your own henhouse. Are you bringing anyone personally and directly into your dirty little secrets, or is this all anonymously and virtually being 'revealed' online, where it can remain not-really-real? I feel strongly that if you have done things in person, then you need to do recovery in person.

This thinking and guitling business is just a way to keep you thinking about it, and that is sick, in the longrun. Hatzlocha.

Found and used a safe rov yet?

Dov,
I have completely lost you!
I posted the below comments from someone who PM'd me. It is not to comment on or disagree with. There were some very good points in the PM and I thought it may be beneficial for someone else.
That's all...
I do agree with you I may need recovery in person, as virtual recovery is not doing much for me at present. I may be in touch with someone on the phone shortly, but not yet face to face (distance too great).

sounds good - sorry if any misunderstanding - hatzlocha rabba!!