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TOPIC: Fallen 2197 Views

Re: Fallen 08 Apr 2011 14:37 #103650

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willnevergiveup wrote on 08 Apr 2011 00:52:

Regarding UAJ's post, I still do not agree, saying that your life is one big lie. Just because you have constantly suffered with one particular Taiva all your life, does not negate all the tremendous good things one has done. Therefore ones life is good and valuable and full of Emess besides for some aspects of your Avodas Hashem.


Yes I've done chessed, yes I've learned torah and I've even done other mitzvos too. No I don't c"v regret a single one of them. And, I believe that I will get schar for all of them. BUT I was trained from infancy to do all of that. I live in a family and community that values those things. Hashem doesn't want robots to serve him. Rachmuna leiba buey.  Can I exempt myself from doing all those things if I don't have the proper motivation. Of course not. But I'm honest enough not to fool myself into thinking that this is the way its supposed to be. Nor would it be right to fool myself into thinking that all is good but for one taivah.

For example, you talk about the chesed in raising children which those of us that are married with kids I imagine we all do. Now picture this scenario. Its 8:00 you're in the office. You're wife calls you she's had a long day she needs some help with the kids. You say you'll be leaving soon you just have to finish up some work. The "work" you're finishing up is to finish browsing through a collection of porn pictures which you keep on telling yourself just one more and than you'll stop. An hour later finally overcome with all sorts of guilt you stop, leave the office and come home. By the time you get home. All is quiet, kids are sleeping although your wife is wiped and you can't understand why she's not in the mood of having sex with you.  Honest assessment. Is this simply a lust taivah or is the problem much deeper rooted in the fact that "I" am the center of the universe.  And if "I" need porn now nothing else really matters. What does it say about the "chesed" I've been doing. Was it simply an act of rote, or a "make myself feel good" type of act that I can pat myself on the back and say "I'm a decent person."  If those acts of chesed were done because I recognize that there is a G-d that created me and told me "be like Me -- just like I am gomel chesed so should you." Then the above scenario would probably look very different and probably wouldn't have happened in the first place.

If my learning on the plane is because my Rosh Hayeshiva is next to me. That means I'm not learning because Hashem told me to learn, I'm learning for my Rosh Hayeshiva's sake and probably when I learned at home when my Rosh Hayeshiva was not there, I learned for some other personal reason like to be able to say, that "I'm frum I keep a seder." Should you stop such learning?  No. But let's at least be honest and know that it could be different and better. 

Honesty says that if I did something really terrible towards my G-d, my wonderful wife and myself that I don't go to the googlar rebba and ask him how to fix it because I'm too selfish to give up on my pride.  I don't envy your situation.  I can't judge you.  It took me a long time to come clean to a real person.  What convinced me to finally speak with someone live and real was the calculation that I can be temporarily embarrassed here or eternally embarrassed upstairs. Admittedly a selfish chesbon. Down here the embarrassment will eventually pass.  And actually the process was quite relieving. 

I wish you a lot of Hatzlacha. I have no doubt you are a good person who just made some bad decisions.  I'm davening for your success and I appreciate you questioning me since it gave me the opportunity to think about my own situation and to try to get real.

Good Shabbos and don't forget to be extra nice to your wife, she deserves it.
Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim.  www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0
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Re: Fallen 10 Apr 2011 11:21 #103749

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willy,
ucan pm me, but i mamesh have nothing extraordanary to share. How did i overcome what? doing serious things with a live person? im still overcoming it now, working on myself in middos and 12 steps.

what does it mean to be too honest? im not sure if that's a compliment or what.
but i'll say one thing.
by often admitting my faults and gaining truckloads of self awareness, it has helped me survive till now.

one time, when i came dangerously close to doing this with another person, i kept contact with her and always was interested in her welfare. It killed me. I had to just put it behind and move forward.....


btw, i just posted my "does God hate me" kuntress, i know God doesnt hate u or me.

Hashem just wants us to serve him sincerely, all the time.

Tshuva undoes everything. Part of tshuva is changing our entire lives to do God's will for once, see famous mishna in ta'anis.

will u change ur whole life?
are u afraid to do that?


do you know what you need to change?


much success, avi/tz90
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Re: Fallen 10 Apr 2011 15:10 #103764

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willnevergiveup wrote on 05 Apr 2011 16:42:

Thank you Rage,  I never new this was an Issur.

Interesting thing about those Rage posts, you often can't find them!

Anyways, just checking in.  How are you doing Will? 

--Eye.
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Re: Fallen 10 Apr 2011 23:00 #103809

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Hi Everyone,

Thank you for all the posts. I do want to answer your post UAJ, just have not got physical strength at the moment. But I will come back to it, as I still do not agree with you.

Been really not so well since I got back, especially very strong pains in the penis area. It has worried the hell out of me. Went to get tested to a private clinic paid a fortune, and the doctor said many items will not show up on the test as it is too close to the incident.
Besides for that got a parking ticket as I came 5 mins late for my prepaid ticket.
All in all, it has been a horrible week. Racked with guilt every time I look at my wife, and generally not being able to think about anything else but IT. It literally has not left my mind for more than a few seconds and it is absolutely driving me nuts, I have no inner peace at all at the moment, and I can't even relax as I am too uptight.
Now I understand Vchatasi Negdi Tamid.

The reason why I am telling you this is not for sympathy. Just to try and drum it into myself how much I have lost, for what? For about 30 seconds of pleasure. (I am not referring to all the other Issurim) But on the other hand if she would not have forced herself on me and had the intercourse, I don't think I would be sitting here now writing anything. I probably would have put all the other Issurim behind me and forgotten all about it and not changed at all. Very likely I would have repeated my silly mistakes again and done the same thing on my next business trip.

Now I have had this shock to my system, I really want to (as Tzaddik90 says) make a life change that even the mistakes that led me to the Aveiros I committed will not happen.

The story is fresh in my mind and I remember during those few days when I was with the girl, thinking, is this it? Is this what it is like to be with another woman? I would give anything to be with my wife, she is so much more than this petty pleasure. I remember hardly even enjoying it (not because of guilt) because it really was not that exciting!!
Yet now I have not got it, I am replaying in my mind all the scenes and actions again and again as if it was something so wonderful. But it really was not! It is amazing the lies of the Yetzer Hara how he creates a reality that was simply not there.

What I am coming to is, in the beginning of my posts I said it can't and will not happen again. As someone aptly pointed out I was being naive. Now I realise how true that is. There is no way I can trust myself again!! All I can say is BH she is a million miles away and not round the corner.

Therefore, I need to change, I am not going away for a long time so there is time to improve and make some changes. When I do go away this forum will BEH be my support while I am away.

I am not sure where to start.

I hope the good people on this forum can help me and point me in the right direction.

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Re: Fallen 10 Apr 2011 23:35 #103820

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Most of us can relate to to falling for the illusion that the YH conjures for us.  That the next video we watch will be the one that will satisfy us and then we will stop. He is a master artist. But all taiva is an illusion that will never fulfill us.

While I feel bad about the discomfort you are feeling i'm glad to see your mindset is much more on the path to proper teshuva.
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Re: Fallen 11 Apr 2011 00:12 #103822

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"I'm not sure where to start". See my earlier post above. Also start talking to Hashem during the course of your day. He's listening.
Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim.  www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0
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Re: Fallen 11 Apr 2011 03:21 #103830

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See a freaking Rov already.

"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: Fallen 11 Apr 2011 06:59 #103844

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dov wrote on 11 Apr 2011 03:21:

See a freaking Rov already.

:o

yikes!

You mean a safe Rov dov, don't you?
For Dov and the other two guys who care,
My real name really is
 Eli
Like the original Bendy, Ein hadavar talui ela bee




 
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Re: Fallen 11 Apr 2011 11:37 #103847

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I think you should just shelf this whole thing for a while.  It sounds like you're driving yourself crazy.
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Re: Fallen 11 Apr 2011 13:07 #103855

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Are you talking to me EYE?
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Re: Fallen 11 Apr 2011 14:38 #103861

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Dear WNGU,

When I was about 19 years old, my Rosh Yeshiva told me something that gave me a lot of chizuk and which I never forgot - "You're gonna make it!"  I say the same thing to you now - B'Ezras Hashem, you're gonna make it! 

You have an important task ahead of you - too important to allow yourself to wallow in self-pity.  Unfortunately, we live in a generation where infidelity is even on the radar screen, where it can even be considered a Hava Amina.  Where people, who are otherwise frum, often resent the Torah's restrictions which, they assume, deprive them of unending pleasure.  Therefore, people like you are very much needed to get the word out (in a way that won't compromise your anonymity, such as through GYE) what the reality is.  To burst people's bubble and let them know the truth - how a moment of pleasure can cause a lifetime of regret.

By using your experience as a springboard to help others, you will give meaning to what happened, and will, b'Ezras Hashem, be Zoche to Teshuva Mei'ahava.

But, all in good time.  I'll reiterate what's been said above - speak to a Rav with whom you can share everything, what Dov calls a "safe Rav."  Before you are ready to help others, you need guidance and Chizuk yourself.

Hatzlacha!
Just as an alcoholic needs to avoid that first sip, a lust addict needs to avoid that first slip.Slip today? No way! ;)Fall today? No way, Jose'!
Last Edit: 11 Apr 2011 14:51 by .

Re: Fallen 11 Apr 2011 21:07 #103907

Will,

I have a lot that to share with you which will probably help you but I can't post it on this public forum due to lack of privacy.  Email me at workingmyprogram@gmail.com and we can set up a time to talk.
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Re: Fallen 12 Apr 2011 06:36 #103936

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willnevergiveup wrote on 11 Apr 2011 13:07:

Are you talking to me EYE?


Yes.
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Re: Fallen 12 Apr 2011 15:53 #103964

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dear williard esq. ,

regarding the q u asked me in a pm, i thought it is appropriate to paste a letter i wrote

i wld like to post it here and not pm it, so that the other cowboys here can be choleik if need be and guide you to the right spot if i am off

i have come to see u r a good man, you will make it like kedusha said, and like eye said, shelfing it sounds good too, but in my opinion it is to be shelfed with the following program:



Dear friend,
1) Step one is that we cannot tell our wife anything about what happened. She cannot understand. The gemara says in megillah that the most threatening destructive force that one can lash onto a woman is the thought of jealousy that her husband has been with someone else. Telling her anything, ever, will cause destruction. Not only that, but she may then secretly go and cheat on her husband in return. This can be for two reasons:
one, because she is crushed, irepairably, and now needs something big to fill her emotional gap. Since she got hurt in the area of sex, she will want sex elsewhere to fill it up. When a woman has sex, it is in order to feel loved. When infidelity strikes, she needs to fill that love from somewhere else-since she thinks her husband no longer loves her. And medrash pirkei direbbo eliezer says that this need for love through sex is so powerful that a woman, even a good tzaddeikess, will sin with any man in the world in order to get it.
two, now that she feels her husband was not honest with her, she will no longer feel she has to be with him. Plus, its possible that out of jealousy she will sin with some one else to show him that she is in control of her own partners, and no one can take that from her; and that she will no longer be used by her husband, rather she will take that part of her life into her own hands.
Her trait of tznius, or love for you will never, ever be able to compete with the feeling of hatred and betrayal that she feels. We know from chazal that "ain miratzin ess ha'adam bisha'as ka'aso." When someoones angry, the seichel leaves and all barriers come down. tznius and virtues fly instantly out the window. "A person that is angry is as if he does avodah zara"-this is because an angry person will do WHATEVER THEY PLEASE as if God does not exist.
2) Amongst the 12 step program that is saving my life, there is a point where we make amends with whom we harmed. I claim no understanding of this. However, i would like to believe that this idea of making amends with those wronged is only when the victim is aware of your harm to them. Otherwise, the old dictum says, "what you dont know cant hurt you." The Pele Yoetz seems to hold this way, see erech ish/isha.
In hilchos lashon harah there was a machlokes between poskim, Chofetz Chaim and R' yisrael Salanter, if we tell the person that we spoke about what we said about them. If i recall correctly from sefer mishpatei hashalom, (eyin sham) we paskin that we do NOT tell the victim what we said, because they will be hurt EVEN THOUGH WE REALLY MEAN RIGHT NOW TO MAKE UP, and it will cause distruction, literally.
3)So now, we cannot tell her. We feel an urge to tell, so should we tell somebody?
Yes and no. We cannot tell anybody that can cause us harm with this information. In addition, telling a painting of Washinton crossing the Delaware will help, but not much. if we know who to tell to receive the maximum benefit, then that is the address we must go to. Telling a Rav sounds nice, and it may be. I think telling a person who is a sexaholic or who has done something of a similar nature is what is necessary.
I will tell you why you must tell a live person.
In order to grow from this experience the way God intended, you must squeeze out all of which you need from this story. To just do the three steps of tshuva and come to shacharis earlier and learn more each day, i do not believe that this is why God had you fly across the world to do a sin that is worthy of kannaim pogin bo or kares . If God just wanted you to do tshuva, he could have made you do another sin in your own home, like embarass somebody publicly at the shabbos table.
Hashem arranged this sin to happen. See tzidkas hatzaddik 40 and the long post Gaurd sent you earlier on.
So what did God want from this? just to say sorry?
I think he wanted from you what i felt he wanted from me-to figure out how to change my entire life. Not to become a chassid. I dont mean that (but its okay as long as it does not distract from the actual changes God wanted you to make).
I mean, and i quote hasefer hagadol, page 27 "to me these occurences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes that were once the guiding  forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them."
This has very much to do with why we must tell a live person, and not just use cute screennames and websites. We must STARE THE UGLY FILTHY TRUTH IN THE FACE and fully feel, running through every single cell in our bodies I DID THIS ACT. I DID IT. VERY FEW JEWS IN THE WORLD DO THIS, BIT I DID. I REACHED THAT LEVEL. CALL IT A ONE TIME THING OR NOT, I DID WHAT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN A ONE TIME GOING TO CHURCH, KISSING A CROSS, AND GETTING BAPTISED. IT WAS ONLY ONE TIME, BUT THAT IS WHAT I DID.
Only by feeling this force of truth rush through your veins will you stand any chance of being motivated to make these changes. Otherwise, it will not happen. I told you in a previous post, when the bochur in the story in the ben ish chai's sefer slept with a zonah two times, he tried to commit suicide, not out of depression, but due to a sincere desire to make a change. He did not know how to make that change, so he wanted to show his real earnestness and sincerity by killing himself. And God appreciated it very very much, as the end of the story relates.
I too did this type of sin. By wearing the truth like a shirt, like Dov once said, and not just running through the 3 steps of tshuva and not making a change.
The mishna in taanis i mentioned in a post says that the elder of the town must tell the city who is fasting and repenting, that the posuk says that tore their hearts in tshuva, not their clothing. And THAT is what effects a real change.
To do this you must tell a live person. There is no other way. I told a live person too. I told a man who acted out with men. By telling him, i am reminded of what i have reached, and with the awareness i get from that, i live with it gently reminding me and pushing me forward to change ALL my ways of life, all day, to become a real person, till the last day of mine on earth.
______________
This answers your original question, because when we are REALLY WILLING to REALLY change EVERYTHING, then THAT is how i deal with what i did wrong. By living my entire life, and day, and every moment to correct who i was, and to affect that REAL CHanGE that God wanted me to get from this sin that I did.
I feel good. My wife doesnt know what she shouldnt. And i am benefitting her life and making amends this way by living a real new life of change. She benefits, and i feel satisfied that i am involved in what is asked of me by God, my wife, and most important, myself.
I am more important to myself than God, because if i do not care about my own self, to become a REAL PERSON, then i cannot possibly really care about my relationship and duties to God and my wife.
Most people make a mediocre change at best. They start to use a generator on shabbos and for two weeks they learn chovos halvavos. That will not effect a real change in anyone. The words that i quoted from the sefer hagadol page 27, are ingeniously precise, insightful, and guiding:
"to me these occurences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes that were once the guiding  forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them."
There is no bigger ba'al tashchis then to waste an aveirah of this magnitude. Please, i beg of you, live by this sin all the moments of the rest of your life, and God will-ing you will achieve that complete change that you were really supposed to, to benefit yourself, your family, and most importantly, to fulfill your duty to your creator.
I speak from experience. I am in no way fully successful yet of this real change, but i have many pieces in place and an earnest desire.
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Re: Fallen 12 Apr 2011 17:31 #103980

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Tzaddik90, thank you, you are absolutely wonderful and what you said is fantastic and hit home. We will be in touch soon.
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