I don't think Cords is God, although he puts it in his signature, but I let him enjoy the driver's seat. I sometimes might disagree with him and I sometimes feel like we may be living in two different worlds but I respect other people's perspective and tend to retract some of my original statement to make place for both. Usually, as was the case here, I really made a mistake.

cordnoy wrote on 17 Jan 2024 03:07:

thats a punishment?

true_self wrote on 15 Jan 2024 08:48:

Friend, I don't really agree, at least with the way you are I understand what you are saying..

I have read a decent amount of AA material over the years (one great book is God of our Understanding by Rabbi Shais Taub). There is tremendous Chochma therein, and I gained a tremendous amount from what I learned and utilized the concepts in my personal battles and growth [obviously that isn't the same as actually working the program]. And it helped me in helping others, in other areas.  I have the greatest respect for the Program. A lot resonated with me. Yet I am BH not an addict, (though I may have a tendency to addictive behaviors, which I mostly successfully avoid BH). The fact that I learned a lot and some of it talked to me isn't a good way to see if I fit the criteria.

I'll explain better how I understand what my-friend-the-wise-therapist said. [At the risk of entering a discussion on this topic, which I know is a sensitive one, and one that I have not studied enough to have a fully developed opinion.]

1. Every time a guy (or gal) eats 3 pieces of cake even though they are on a diet, and says "I know I'll hate myself for this later, but I can't resist", he or she is acting out of a compulsion to follow an urge and against their better higher judgement. Does that define the individual as an addict? I personally would not opt for that definition, though I can only speak for myself. But what if this happens once per day? what about if it happens 3 times per day? What if he or she becomes grossly obese and is suffering from health and other problems as a result?

2. This is where the value of my friend's definition comes in. When such compulsive behavior extends to the intensity and level that t creates dysfunction in his or her life, and he cannot rein it in, that can be a useful definition of an addict who need serious help. This is how I understood his point.

It gets more complicated when you try to use this definition in the context of P&M and other kinds of sexual behaviors, when you factor in Yiddishkeit and people's anguish, guilt, and other internal issues, and how these behaviors are problematic in the context of a marriage.

I am not even going to try.

Here is a link that might be helpful to the discussion, too. (Thank you iwillmanage for sharing it with me.)

guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/can-a-lukewarm-use-of-the-12-steps-be-helpful-for-someone-who-isn-t-a-real-addict?category_id=538 />

chaimoigen wrote on 14 Jan 2024 20:23:

That's great for the therapist that needs to know how to work with his or her client.
For the addict, addict-in-denial or doubting addict-non addict, I think that attraction is the way to figure himself out, as Dov writes in the article hechochma linked below (thanks).
If anyone out there is doubting if he's an addict or not (like I did), I suggest (sharing what has helped me) you read some of the AA/SA material and see if it attracts you, if you relate to some (even few) of the points they talk about, it's likely to be helpful for you to join the program.

hechochma wrote on 12 Jan 2024 17:57:

A close friend who is an excellent and experienced therapist told me he would define it as when the use of whatever substance/drug/behavior is "causing dysfunction". Something to think about, because there's a spectrum.  

Thank you for those articles!

Lew's definition of addiction is the best I've ever heard.

With a spirit of humility, care, and respect I would like to share some thoughts on lasting and internal change. 

My hiatus and subsequent extremely hectic couple of weeks has had me take a step back from my involvement here (I even missed the raffle). Catching up a bit, I’ve seen a number of posts that I had a desire to comment on over the past few days, but I decided to instead come here and share my thoughts. Because I only want to talk about myself, and share these as my own thoughts, I guess. Yet these reflections are actually the product of months of thought, and might be somewhat helpful to my friends. Sorry for lengthiness….

There have been posts about the disappointing experience of folks coming on the forums, feeling euphoric about finally breaking free from their problems for a time, and then eventually sadly coming face to face with the hard reality that the internal problem is still there. Alive and unfortunately kicking. There’s been discussion about how hugs and charts and accountability may be good for folks who don’t have a real problem, but are a waste of time if they distract you from taking the step to recognizing that you need meaningful, internal change. 

I don’t really disagree with the concepts. Change that isn’t internalized won’t last. True. We see this truth unfortunately all the time. Yes, you can’t “cure” an addiction with only a dose of optimistic positivity and encouragement. However, I strongly disagree with certain conclusions that could potentially be drawn from these observations. And I’m writing these words to champion the incredible value of these forums, which to my thinking cannot be overstated. 

First, the obvious. You can only take step two after step one. It’s very hard to push the “submit” button the first time, to come out of the shadows and start posting. It’s hard to admit you have a problem, that you need help. It’s terrifying to communicate with others, even behind a blanket of anonymity. The forums provide a critical first step.  And a warm welcome and positivity can encourage a fellow to stick around and learn. To make connections he wouldn’t otherwise make. To recognise the extent of his issues and learn about ways to grow. In this context it’s terrific, and I don’t think anyone disagrees with this. 

Now let’s talk about real and lasting change. Internal change. 

Pretty much everyone who comes here has a problem. I’m not going to get into a discussion about how to define addiction, but y’all would not be here without the fact  that these issues are creating problems in your internal and/or external life. Pretty everyone here has tried to fix their problem on their own, unsuccessfully.

That means that “just stopping” isn’t really one of the options for almost anyone who finds himself on GYE.

And, as with most problems, external changes alone won’t last. Because the problem is usually bigger than the just the symptomatic behavior. If someone has been using P&M to fill a deep aching need for years, against his better intellectual judgement, it’s unlikely that merely talking to people about how he really wants to stop will make real changes in his life. 

But here’s the thing. In all areas of life, real change is hard. Therapists all over charge a fortune to insert their sometimes-grubby fingers deep inside, and grope around in the aching psyche of confused and searching Neshamos everywhere, with varying success. There are diets and self-help books and retreats, life- coaches, and all-knowing experts, everywhere, each promising their own marvelous medicine for true and lasting change. Providing the patient/subject/client “Does The Work”. But what does that mean? 

The thing is - a human is a marvelously complex and baffling piece of work, fueled by a cosmic Neshoma, weighed down by childhood upbringing and history, his Yetzerim and personality, and the burdens of unrequited hopes and dreams. Complex situations and relationships. Sheifos, goals, setbacks. And life. People! It ain’t easy to fix em up. 

We are all muddling through, best as we can. That’s the honest truth. And it takes trial and error, and working from the outside to the inside.

Because we have to try. Genuinely. And we have to start with what we can wrap our hands and heads around. Because that’s the way practical people do it. And then make mistakes. And ask questions. And keep trying. And learn new things. And get excited. And get angry. And say really stupid things and sometimes regret them and sometimes not. And try again. And learn something new. And think and feel and try again. Sometimes it penetrates, sometimes it doesn’t. You have to try to use the best tools you can get your hands on, have mentors and friends, learn methods and self-realization. And with Siyata Dishmaya it will sometimes go it, and things will be different. If you keep trying. 

Trying, learning, and trial and error, with openness and honesty. Connection to good people. Willingness to learn from their experiences. And an attempt to grow, step by step.
In my experience outside of GYE- this is the recipe for change. And that’s what these forums are, too. 

I’ve read a lot about the 12 Step Program and have the greatest respect for it. It’s one way that a lot of people have achieved growth and change, if they work the Steps right. Therapy approaches problems differently, and there are different modalities, and a lot of people are helped that way too. If they Do The Work.  And learning valuable truths from mentors and seforim and friends, and working to develop new ways of living until you learn to change your thinking and paradigms, step by step, is a way that people can change, too. If they do the work.  There are other ways.  Yisurim can make or break a man, for example . And more ways. Maybe there are  as many ways to grow, and as few, as there are differences between men, at the bottom of it. Different things are needed by different people with different problems. The main thing, to my thinking and experience, is to keep working. Then you’ll eventually find the key that turns the lock, with Siyata Dishmaya. 

These forums are sacred and special and I love them with all of my heart. (Even at the rare times when people write infuriatingly stupid things). Because they provide tools for genuine change and growth in a way that I haven’t seen before. 

Some of the qualities in these forums are:
The forums are:  A safe place to recognize that your life has become (somewhat) unmanageable. A place to make friends by sharing and caring.  A place to connect with a fellowship of people who actually understand. A place to face up to your own mistakes, to recognize the hurt you’ve done to yourself and others, and to try to learn how to make amends. A place to learn profound and universal truths about yourself, and your life. About why you do stuff. And about Yiddishkeit. About marriage and relationships.

The forums are a repository of reams of pages of culled wisdom. A place to connect to people who have the most valuable commodity of all- life experience.

And maybe most importantly - the forums are place where people receive the gift of opportunity to actually meet with real people, when they get to that stage, which leads to indescribable potential for healing. A lot of the real healing with mentors here takes place offline, without a clear record in the forums (so if you haven’t yet, talk to someone).

All of this and much more are tools for genuine growth and change. But yeah, you gotta do the work.
The tools without the work won’t do it. But don’t blame the tools. 

What works for you? Here’s a good place to find out. There are many resources and things that have worked for people like you. And if what you’re doing doesn’t work, someone might point out to you that it’s time to try something else, and thank Hashem for that. If something’s working for you, share it, because it might help others. But please don’t think there’s only one prescription, or disparage the process that others are muddling through, cause that’s what we humans do. 

Saying “Anyone who was helped by method X obviously never had a real problem, because I had a real problem and it didn’t help me” isn’t only insulting, it’s also illogical and wrong, as anyone who’s read a lot of threads here knows.  Telling someone who is stuck that perhaps they should try something else, and suggesting what worked for you is a bracha and a promise of hope. I’d like to see more of the second. 

May Hashem bless GYE. I have a paper in which I have all the names of the guys I’ve met and many I’ve spoken with., and I daven for you regularly. Took it to Kever Rachel and Kosel too ( I davened for the founders and mods,  though I’ve never met them). Because I love you and hope that we’ll all keep growing together, more and less, each in his own way, with Hashem’s help. 

If you’re still here, thanks for listening 
מאן דבעי חיים