I should go to Vegas! I just said yesterday that “I wouldn’t be surprised if I got on here tomorrow and said that I had a fall”…. Well sure enough.. I did! 14 days down the toilet? NO, I have now acted out ONCE in 15 days.. That is still a good achievement. 

Not going to beat myself up over this. I was at work, had an employee’s laptop that needed updating and BAM! The YH finally saw an opening and I fell in short order. 

While I have compared this addiction to alcoholism and drug abuse, one stark difference is there is no hangover. I feel good again today. I am ready for the day and it’s going to be a good one. I am seeing the progress that I am making. In the past, I knew that if I fell once, I was giving myself the green light to fall over and over again for the next few days. That is not my mindset now. I fell, I got back up and I’m moving forward. No guilt, No shame.. just another pothole on this road to recovery. 

So a new streak begins.. Today is day one! Let it be a great day, because everyday is precious and a gift from HaShem… I am going to make the most of it!

Have a great day guys!!!

 I wanted to share shiruim and seforim that mamash changed  my life and outlook specially with my sexual struggles and addiction.

The starting point for me was Rabbi Moshe Weinberger’s Yosef HaTzdaik chabrua https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/850562 . It changed my whole perspective. Of course his other shiruim are amazing too.

Another living changing sefor is Nesivos Shalom. In particular on Sefer shemos. He talk about shirmas habris and his peshat in Galus Mitzrayim is addiction. There’s also a pamphlet just on shavobim that is also amazing. I haven’t checked it out but there’s English translation of Nesivos Shalom.

Both of these brought me to tears many times and I wish I heard them when I was struggling in my teens and 20s.

A really like R’ Joey Rosenfeld. A good place to start is his series “The inner world of addiction” https://www.joeyrosenfeld.com/the-inner-world-of-addiction-watch (also available on Spotify and other podcasts apps). But you can’t go wrong with anything of his.

A more recent discovery is the world of Rabbi Yitzchok Meir Morgenstern. I’m currently learn his Sefer Byom Darchekha Avodah Lmaseh. The section of Teyiva is quite amazing. I love his weekly Divrei Torah.

There are more divrei Torah that have been helpful, but these are the Ikur.

chaimoigen wrote on 15 Jan 2024 14:28:

@CO, Thanks for sharing ur Insight.. I have heard the same from a highly experienced therapist who is very familiar with addictions, particularly with P & M.. He agrees that there are those who need SA and it might be very beneficial for those who have no other options left, however, one who struggles with acting out compulsively doesnt mean that he is a definite addict.

I read thru the AA and SA books, and gained a lot, but would not consider myself (yet) an addict, though, I struggle with compulsive acting out

true_self wrote on 15 Jan 2024 08:48:

Friend, I don't really agree, at least with the way you are I understand what you are saying..

I have read a decent amount of AA material over the years (one great book is God of our Understanding by Rabbi Shais Taub). There is tremendous Chochma therein, and I gained a tremendous amount from what I learned and utilized the concepts in my personal battles and growth [obviously that isn't the same as actually working the program]. And it helped me in helping others, in other areas.  I have the greatest respect for the Program. A lot resonated with me. Yet I am BH not an addict, (though I may have a tendency to addictive behaviors, which I mostly successfully avoid BH). The fact that I learned a lot and some of it talked to me isn't a good way to see if I fit the criteria.

I'll explain better how I understand what my-friend-the-wise-therapist said. [At the risk of entering a discussion on this topic, which I know is a sensitive one, and one that I have not studied enough to have a fully developed opinion.]

1. Every time a guy (or gal) eats 3 pieces of cake even though they are on a diet, and says "I know I'll hate myself for this later, but I can't resist", he or she is acting out of a compulsion to follow an urge and against their better higher judgement. Does that define the individual as an addict? I personally would not opt for that definition, though I can only speak for myself. But what if this happens once per day? what about if it happens 3 times per day? What if he or she becomes grossly obese and is suffering from health and other problems as a result?

2. This is where the value of my friend's definition comes in. When such compulsive behavior extends to the intensity and level that t creates dysfunction in his or her life, and he cannot rein it in, that can be a useful definition of an addict who need serious help. This is how I understood his point.

It gets more complicated when you try to use this definition in the context of P&M and other kinds of sexual behaviors, when you factor in Yiddishkeit and people's anguish, guilt, and other internal issues, and how these behaviors are problematic in the context of a marriage.

I am not even going to try.

Here is a link that might be helpful to the discussion, too. (Thank you iwillmanage for sharing it with me.)

guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/can-a-lukewarm-use-of-the-12-steps-be-helpful-for-someone-who-isn-t-a-real-addict?category_id=538 />

chaimoigen wrote on 14 Jan 2024 20:23:

That's great for the therapist that needs to know how to work with his or her client.
For the addict, addict-in-denial or doubting addict-non addict, I think that attraction is the way to figure himself out, as Dov writes in the article hechochma linked below (thanks).
If anyone out there is doubting if he's an addict or not (like I did), I suggest (sharing what has helped me) you read some of the AA/SA material and see if it attracts you, if you relate to some (even few) of the points they talk about, it's likely to be helpful for you to join the program.

From the mouths of Doves. 
guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/can-12-steps-be-used-by-non-addicts?category_id=538

hechochma wrote on 12 Jan 2024 17:57:

A close friend who is an excellent and experienced therapist told me he would define it as when the use of whatever substance/drug/behavior is "causing dysfunction". Something to think about, because there's a spectrum.  

chaimoigen wrote on 14 Jan 2024 18:59:

Man, I hate these long well thought out posts that make me actually pay attention!
Thanks CO  for doing all the thinking for me

With a spirit of humility, care, and respect I would like to share some thoughts on lasting and internal change. 

My hiatus and subsequent extremely hectic couple of weeks has had me take a step back from my involvement here (I even missed the raffle). Catching up a bit, I’ve seen a number of posts that I had a desire to comment on over the past few days, but I decided to instead come here and share my thoughts. Because I only want to talk about myself, and share these as my own thoughts, I guess. Yet these reflections are actually the product of months of thought, and might be somewhat helpful to my friends. Sorry for lengthiness….

There have been posts about the disappointing experience of folks coming on the forums, feeling euphoric about finally breaking free from their problems for a time, and then eventually sadly coming face to face with the hard reality that the internal problem is still there. Alive and unfortunately kicking. There’s been discussion about how hugs and charts and accountability may be good for folks who don’t have a real problem, but are a waste of time if they distract you from taking the step to recognizing that you need meaningful, internal change. 

I don’t really disagree with the concepts. Change that isn’t internalized won’t last. True. We see this truth unfortunately all the time. Yes, you can’t “cure” an addiction with only a dose of optimistic positivity and encouragement. However, I strongly disagree with certain conclusions that could potentially be drawn from these observations. And I’m writing these words to champion the incredible value of these forums, which to my thinking cannot be overstated. 

First, the obvious. You can only take step two after step one. It’s very hard to push the “submit” button the first time, to come out of the shadows and start posting. It’s hard to admit you have a problem, that you need help. It’s terrifying to communicate with others, even behind a blanket of anonymity. The forums provide a critical first step.  And a warm welcome and positivity can encourage a fellow to stick around and learn. To make connections he wouldn’t otherwise make. To recognise the extent of his issues and learn about ways to grow. In this context it’s terrific, and I don’t think anyone disagrees with this. 

Now let’s talk about real and lasting change. Internal change. 

Pretty much everyone who comes here has a problem. I’m not going to get into a discussion about how to define addiction, but y’all would not be here without the fact  that these issues are creating problems in your internal and/or external life. Pretty everyone here has tried to fix their problem on their own, unsuccessfully.

That means that “just stopping” isn’t really one of the options for almost anyone who finds himself on GYE.

And, as with most problems, external changes alone won’t last. Because the problem is usually bigger than the just the symptomatic behavior. If someone has been using P&M to fill a deep aching need for years, against his better intellectual judgement, it’s unlikely that merely talking to people about how he really wants to stop will make real changes in his life. 

But here’s the thing. In all areas of life, real change is hard. Therapists all over charge a fortune to insert their sometimes-grubby fingers deep inside, and grope around in the aching psyche of confused and searching Neshamos everywhere, with varying success. There are diets and self-help books and retreats, life- coaches, and all-knowing experts, everywhere, each promising their own marvelous medicine for true and lasting change. Providing the patient/subject/client “Does The Work”. But what does that mean? 

The thing is - a human is a marvelously complex and baffling piece of work, fueled by a cosmic Neshoma, weighed down by childhood upbringing and history, his Yetzerim and personality, and the burdens of unrequited hopes and dreams. Complex situations and relationships. Sheifos, goals, setbacks. And life. People! It ain’t easy to fix em up. 

We are all muddling through, best as we can. That’s the honest truth. And it takes trial and error, and working from the outside to the inside.

Because we have to try. Genuinely. And we have to start with what we can wrap our hands and heads around. Because that’s the way practical people do it. And then make mistakes. And ask questions. And keep trying. And learn new things. And get excited. And get angry. And say really stupid things and sometimes regret them and sometimes not. And try again. And learn something new. And think and feel and try again. Sometimes it penetrates, sometimes it doesn’t. You have to try to use the best tools you can get your hands on, have mentors and friends, learn methods and self-realization. And with Siyata Dishmaya it will sometimes go it, and things will be different. If you keep trying. 

Trying, learning, and trial and error, with openness and honesty. Connection to good people. Willingness to learn from their experiences. And an attempt to grow, step by step.
In my experience outside of GYE- this is the recipe for change. And that’s what these forums are, too. 

I’ve read a lot about the 12 Step Program and have the greatest respect for it. It’s one way that a lot of people have achieved growth and change, if they work the Steps right. Therapy approaches problems differently, and there are different modalities, and a lot of people are helped that way too. If they Do The Work.  And learning valuable truths from mentors and seforim and friends, and working to develop new ways of living until you learn to change your thinking and paradigms, step by step, is a way that people can change, too. If they do the work.  There are other ways.  Yisurim can make or break a man, for example . And more ways. Maybe there are  as many ways to grow, and as few, as there are differences between men, at the bottom of it. Different things are needed by different people with different problems. The main thing, to my thinking and experience, is to keep working. Then you’ll eventually find the key that turns the lock, with Siyata Dishmaya. 

These forums are sacred and special and I love them with all of my heart. (Even at the rare times when people write infuriatingly stupid things). Because they provide tools for genuine change and growth in a way that I haven’t seen before. 

Some of the qualities in these forums are:
The forums are:  A safe place to recognize that your life has become (somewhat) unmanageable. A place to make friends by sharing and caring.  A place to connect with a fellowship of people who actually understand. A place to face up to your own mistakes, to recognize the hurt you’ve done to yourself and others, and to try to learn how to make amends. A place to learn profound and universal truths about yourself, and your life. About why you do stuff. And about Yiddishkeit. About marriage and relationships.

The forums are a repository of reams of pages of culled wisdom. A place to connect to people who have the most valuable commodity of all- life experience.

And maybe most importantly - the forums are place where people receive the gift of opportunity to actually meet with real people, when they get to that stage, which leads to indescribable potential for healing. A lot of the real healing with mentors here takes place offline, without a clear record in the forums (so if you haven’t yet, talk to someone).

All of this and much more are tools for genuine growth and change. But yeah, you gotta do the work.
The tools without the work won’t do it. But don’t blame the tools. 

What works for you? Here’s a good place to find out. There are many resources and things that have worked for people like you. And if what you’re doing doesn’t work, someone might point out to you that it’s time to try something else, and thank Hashem for that. If something’s working for you, share it, because it might help others. But please don’t think there’s only one prescription, or disparage the process that others are muddling through, cause that’s what we humans do. 

Saying “Anyone who was helped by method X obviously never had a real problem, because I had a real problem and it didn’t help me” isn’t only insulting, it’s also illogical and wrong, as anyone who’s read a lot of threads here knows.  Telling someone who is stuck that perhaps they should try something else, and suggesting what worked for you is a bracha and a promise of hope. I’d like to see more of the second. 

May Hashem bless GYE. I have a paper in which I have all the names of the guys I’ve met and many I’ve spoken with., and I daven for you regularly. Took it to Kever Rachel and Kosel too ( I davened for the founders and mods,  though I’ve never met them). Because I love you and hope that we’ll all keep growing together, more and less, each in his own way, with Hashem’s help. 

If you’re still here, thanks for listening 
מאן דבעי חיים

-----------------------
PS. At a later point I added in the following, that I posted on another thread:

Dov has written brilliantly about how secrecy is toxic and how coming out of the shadows and stopping to hide is a powerful part of recovery. He has also written how SA meetings are protected by anonymity but not secrecy, as folks meet real people who recognize them . As opposed to folks lurking on GYE forums, hiding behind a secret username. Now Dov admits that these forums are a great first step. His point is real. and worth thinking about, like everything else he writes (he doesn't need my Haskoma either).

However, I want to point out that these days, many folks on GYE are taking the step from being merely an anonymous user name to making a phone call. Most guys use real first names and real numbers eventually. Then, after a while, many have “graduated” to actually meeting others and creating genuine relationships, with mentors and/or friend. With real first and last names.

Dov’s important distinction between secrecy and anonymity is true. Meeting people in real life is an incredibly powerful step in recovery. And secrecy is toxic. I think it's fair to point out that forming genuine friendships and mentorships that include real names, real mentors, and real life are even more real than SA meetings, in some ways.

[I do not mean to say that this is for everyone. Don't do it if you're not ready, and also be careful to protect yourself.  I also do not mean to state or imply that making friendships on GYE and having productive in-person meetings and mentorships is a way to join or fulfill the 12 Step Program. It is not. And it cannot substitute for The Program, with its many other incredibly valuable aspects, because it doesn’t.]

My point is only this: Today, it’s not accurate to characterize GYE wholly as “hiding behind a secret username” because that’s not true for a lot of us.
As Cordnoy pointed out in his first impactful post on this thread [and I’m eternally grateful for that post], secrecy isn’t honesty. But meeting real people is. So I went out and did it. And honestly facing your mistakes, with a real person who knows your name and a lot about you is life-changing. If you haven't done it, you may want to consider it.

Thank you for those articles!

Lew's definition of addiction is the best I've ever heard.

true_self wrote on 12 Jan 2024 13:23:

Yes! Gorgeous.

guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/addict-or-not?category_id=30

guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/who-should-step-over-the-threshold-into-12-step-rooms?category_id=30

I found this from Dov just in time for this weeks torah portion:

"I see the analogy of yetzias mitzrayim applying to Hashem taking us out of the house of slaves, as most do. But with one difference that few choose to talk of:

I see the comparison of the addict (that means me) most closely to what Hashem did for Par'oh, rather than for the B'nei Yisra'el. Par'oh promises over and over again that he'll let go. But he holds on. He even swears that Hashem is 100% right, and that he is dead wrong, yet then hangs onto his beliefs that the Jews can't possibly be given up!

He makes a bankrupt fool of himself over and again, with every makkoh....and still doesn't just let go! How much he suffered! How unmanageable his life and kingdom became! Yet he just could not accept it.... this is my story, and that of most addicts I know. We are exactly the same. "Es asher his'alalti bemitzrayim" - "how I played with/made fools of mitzrayim" We were deep into dotage. It is disgusting, really. How I am 100% devoted and running after seeing the right picture of a selfish and shameless prusteh shiksa and feeling myself to my orgasm - it all becomes so precious and beautiful to me, even with the lying and fakery it usually entails, not to mention my little mess on the floor... How debonair.

Then Par'oh seems to finally hit bottom. He suddenly realizes that he cannot afford to keep holding onto his precious Jews! He runs to recovery. "Go! Go! Get out of my hair now!"

This time he is really contrite. He takes action, puts on a filter, tells his wife all about it, starts going to meetings, a shrink, whatever.

But it does not last long. As soon as he sees the first glimmer of freedom, he interprets it in the funniest way:

"I am cured! Maybe I was a bit ill before, but now, finally, I see things rationally and I am in control!" We see that Par'oh felt cured of his Jew-fetish! So...how did he react? The RaMBa"N points out, "what kind of fruitcake lunatic (OK, so I paraphrase a bit) would surge forward into a miraculously split sea after his quarry? Did he actually think it was split for him, to catch them?!" What does this mean? It means he was reduced to an idiot and a fool. A Captain Ahab crazy with 'Jew-fever', he was.

How did that happen? Didn't he just 'let those people go'?

Simple. He decided that if he were no longer sick - if he was actually able to let go of his Jews, that proves that he is no longer powerless over his lust to keep Jews. He has truly learned his lesson. So now he can recapture them and not fall prey to insane suffering - if they cost him too much next time, he'll just let them go! Just like the smoker: He says to nagging relatives who say, "Harry, you're addicted!" that he "could easily give smoking up at any time! So shut up!" Hmm. Touchy, isn't he? Then he coughs his guts up one night too many and decides to test himself. And behold! He gives it up for a whole week! Will this guy quit? Maybe. But if he is truly an addict, he will most likely take a lesson from his success that he can now control and enjoy it like a gentleman, like everyone else. Just a single smoke after dinner, once in a while. Of course, soon he is back at the races chain smoking again, and his 'control' phase is a distant memory a raspy year or two later.

Par'oh ran after his Jews as soon as he saw he could let them go! "If I can let them go, then why quit!? Control and enjoy it!"

Get it?

This is my story, and I am not alone.

Par'oh ends up in Nineveh, helping the horses (and people!) do teshuvah of some kind - and here we are on GYE helping addicts   (and lots of non-addicts, too) learn that it was never the last drink (schmutzfest) that got them in trouble, but it was always and only the 1st one! We - if we are indeed addicts - are powerless to control the first drink we take. That takes a lot of humility (or humiliation) to admit. Admitting we are actually powerless over the first drink is not normal. Normal people (even normal yidden!!) can take a drink of lust without ending up in the toilet bowl. Not me. That is the 1st step of a long, slow, and beautiful recovery.

Have a nice day!"

Enjoy!
I relate to this very much, does anyone else?
Gut Shabbos!

cordnoy wrote on 11 Jan 2024 15:46:


Thanks Cords. I have been doing a slow swim through your many threads and I have found them to be very enlightening.

I would love to hear the rest of your points - would you be willing to share?

cryingforhelp wrote on 09 Jan 2024 15:37:

I know the feeling, I have a believe that I'm a quite and closed person although it's not quite true, It's actually mainly my addiction that caused me to escape from people and closing up due to the fear of my innermost secret being exposed. I'm working on courage to open up despite the vulnerability and fear because I know that if I wont create the change for myself, nobody will. Brother, I know it's hard but you need some courage. I'll pray for you to get it.

All the best!
True self