cordnoy wrote on 11 Jan 2024 15:46:


Thanks Cords. I have been doing a slow swim through your many threads and I have found them to be very enlightening.

I would love to hear the rest of your points - would you be willing to share?

guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/addict-or-not?category_id=30

guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/who-should-step-over-the-threshold-into-12-step-rooms?category_id=30

Thank you for those articles!

Lew's definition of addiction is the best I've ever heard.

hechochma wrote on 12 Jan 2024 17:57:

A close friend who is an excellent and experienced therapist told me he would define it as when the use of whatever substance/drug/behavior is "causing dysfunction". Something to think about, because there's a spectrum.  

From the mouths of Doves. 
guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/can-12-steps-be-used-by-non-addicts?category_id=538

chaimoigen wrote on 14 Jan 2024 20:23:

That's great for the therapist that needs to know how to work with his or her client.
For the addict, addict-in-denial or doubting addict-non addict, I think that attraction is the way to figure himself out, as Dov writes in the article hechochma linked below (thanks).
If anyone out there is doubting if he's an addict or not (like I did), I suggest (sharing what has helped me) you read some of the AA/SA material and see if it attracts you, if you relate to some (even few) of the points they talk about, it's likely to be helpful for you to join the program.

true_self wrote on 15 Jan 2024 08:48:

Friend, I don't really agree, at least with the way you are I understand what you are saying..

I have read a decent amount of AA material over the years (one great book is God of our Understanding by Rabbi Shais Taub). There is tremendous Chochma therein, and I gained a tremendous amount from what I learned and utilized the concepts in my personal battles and growth [obviously that isn't the same as actually working the program]. And it helped me in helping others, in other areas.  I have the greatest respect for the Program. A lot resonated with me. Yet I am BH not an addict, (though I may have a tendency to addictive behaviors, which I mostly successfully avoid BH). The fact that I learned a lot and some of it talked to me isn't a good way to see if I fit the criteria.

I'll explain better how I understand what my-friend-the-wise-therapist said. [At the risk of entering a discussion on this topic, which I know is a sensitive one, and one that I have not studied enough to have a fully developed opinion.]

1. Every time a guy (or gal) eats 3 pieces of cake even though they are on a diet, and says "I know I'll hate myself for this later, but I can't resist", he or she is acting out of a compulsion to follow an urge and against their better higher judgement. Does that define the individual as an addict? I personally would not opt for that definition, though I can only speak for myself. But what if this happens once per day? what about if it happens 3 times per day? What if he or she becomes grossly obese and is suffering from health and other problems as a result?

2. This is where the value of my friend's definition comes in. When such compulsive behavior extends to the intensity and level that t creates dysfunction in his or her life, and he cannot rein it in, that can be a useful definition of an addict who need serious help. This is how I understood his point.

It gets more complicated when you try to use this definition in the context of P&M and other kinds of sexual behaviors, when you factor in Yiddishkeit and people's anguish, guilt, and other internal issues, and how these behaviors are problematic in the context of a marriage.

I am not even going to try.

Here is a link that might be helpful to the discussion, too. (Thank you iwillmanage for sharing it with me.)

guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/can-a-lukewarm-use-of-the-12-steps-be-helpful-for-someone-who-isn-t-a-real-addict?category_id=538 />

chaimoigen wrote on 15 Jan 2024 14:28:

@CO, Thanks for sharing ur Insight.. I have heard the same from a highly experienced therapist who is very familiar with addictions, particularly with P & M.. He agrees that there are those who need SA and it might be very beneficial for those who have no other options left, however, one who struggles with acting out compulsively doesnt mean that he is a definite addict.

I read thru the AA and SA books, and gained a lot, but would not consider myself (yet) an addict, though, I struggle with compulsive acting out